Listen to the entire interview here (52 minutes)
Why podcasts are legendary with Matt Johnson and Tom Schwab. All right. All right. All right. What did Joey ramone same. He said, hey Ho, let’s go. Welcome to legends and losers. My friends. This is the podcast where we strive to have authentic conversations about what it takes to design a legendary business and a legendary life. And A, we also dig into other seminal topics like why chickens are actually real life dinosaurs. And what the fuck is it that compels so many people in the state of California to drive so slowly in the passing lane. The left lane is not a cruising lane, but I, I don’t know, maybe no one told them. I don’t know what’s going on and uh, and other topics along those lines. Um, so as our intro says, drive yourself in and today we have a really fun and informative show and if you like podcasting, you’re going to love today.
So as I’m sure you know, uh, September 30th is international podcast day and today’s episode of legends and losers with Tom Schwab and Matt Johnson is a celebration, so to speak of international podcast day. And that we’re going to get into some data about podcasts and podcast growth and penetration and usage and so forth school to talk about formats and approaches to podcasting how podcasts have become the new blogs, what an awesome medium podcasting is. We’re just going to keep talking about how the legendary podcasts and it’s a really fun conversation. And in particular we’re going to talk about how we all really believe in it. We’re still fairly new in this medium because the reality is for a long time, podcasting is just kind of in like radio on the Internet and now you’re starting to see a whole, whole, whole new set of categories of podcasts emerge in entertainment.
You know, legends and losers is not an interview show. It’s a dialogue show. And, um, and you see these incredible cereals that are, uh, uh, blowing people’s minds. And, um, the other thing we see on the business side of course, is that businesses are getting into podcasting big time or, or maybe I should say bigly. And, um, it’s really working. And podcasts have really become the number one medium for thought leaders. Um, when we were beginning to do the marketing for our book play bigger when it came out on one of the things we were told is the best way to market a book today as an author is actually to go on podcasts. And so there’s sort of viewed as a medium for quote unquote thought leadership, whatever, whatever that means. Now I’m netsweet the next ready business tour. Uh, we are, but by the time this airs, we will be, uh, most mostly complete with the ones I’m doing with a November nine in Miami being the last one.
So I just want to take a quick opportunity to say thank you to everyone at net suite to a rank, a bottle, a and two lane sobel and the entire legendary netsweet field marketing team. Of course, Jason Maynard, uh, the head of strategy and marketing at net suite, one of the smartest guys I know and especially a huge thank you to everyone that came out. I’m best I could tell all of the cities were sold out. They certainly were jam packed and I’m a, I think I might have carpal tunnel syndrome from a signing play biggers and um, uh, the best part of it for me actually was the amazing people I got an opportunity to, to be with and because they were small venues, um, you know, people hung out after sort of the formal talk was done and we could have a beer and, and uh, and have a conversation.
And when I was sounding play biggers, I got an opportunity to meet a bunch of people and so it was an incredible way to meet a ton of entrepreneurs and executives and investors and I met some very cool athletes including, um, uh, my new best friend, Bill Walton, who I have a complete man crush on and so forth. So an incredible experience all around. And, uh, thank you. Uh, netsweet also want to set the stage to say a special thank you to my buddy Brian Sheehan in Denver. Uh, Brian, it was great hanging out with you. Thanks so much for coming to the event. And, um, you know, what, can I say it, you’ve been, you’ve been with legends and losers since the beginning. You’re awesome. And, um, party on Wayne. Couple more quick shout outs. Jon Berghoff, who was our guest on episode 33 and I hope we’ll come back and hysterical guy and incredible guy, an amazing leadership guru.
He did a post on facebook about the judge, filer episode, episode 66. And if you’re a longtime listener, as you probably know, we’ve set a beehag for the judge, filer episode of getting it to a million downloads and we’re nowhere near downloads on that episode, but it’s a, it’s something that, uh, we feel as a, a powerful, powerful message for the world. Anyway, here’s what John posted on facebook quote. I listened to this episode with my seven year old son a few weeks ago. After a few minutes he said to me, dad, this is way better than going to school. More importantly, I saw his wheels turning his awareness of the world opening up. And then Jay marsh a marsh. Uh, yes. God, I’m sorry, J and j Dot r I s I think maybe I’m saying that right. M a r a I s please excuse the dyslexic, but Jay facebook says, quote, this podcast is amazing.
The last one with cameron is a gem and I’ll end the quote for a second here, man, that Cameron herold episode of legends and losers is mindblowing if you haven’t checked it out. He is a giant. He is a giant in the world. Executive coaches. Okay. Now go back to Jay’s post quote. I love how the guests start off, all polite and in an hour they throw f bombs all over the show. Love it, and he says, quote, thank you for an amazing podcast. Mr Luckett would. Jay, you’re very welcome. Thank you for telling me. And then our a media room blue. I think I’m saying that right. Mia Rogo Lou again, forgive me a quote, amazing podcast, funny, informational, and very interesting range of topics that are not limited just to marketing, but many areas, areas of legendary characters, legends and losers podcast. Keep me engaged by being very funny and interesting.
Interviews of legends. 10 stars out of five, Christopher lochhead is a great host, highly recommend legends and losers. Wow. Thank you. Thank you so much. That’s incredible. And then I really need to say a giant thank you to my dear friend and our guest von O’connor from Australia who was here recently on a business trip. And this guy had a custom made beautiful, gorgeous surfboard for me with Joey ramone. I’m a spray painted on underneath it and I’m to call it beautiful. Is A, a, a, an understatement, I guess you could say. It is the coolest surfboard maybe of all time. So thank you Vaughn O’connor. I love you and that to Ryan Hughes for your awesome facebook post. Thank you. All right. Today’s guest, Tom Schwab. Tom, uh, his first job out of college was running a nuclear nuclear power plant for the navy. Yeah. And so in his life he’s run a nuclear reactor and a small business. This company interview valet that he’s the founder of awesome company.
And um, he says one was easy because it came with an instruction manual. So I can only assume he’s talking about the reactor being easier than a small business. So he’s the founder of interview Valet and the category designer of a new service called podcast interview marketing, which is an approach to being a guest on podcasts as a way to dry strategic business outcomes and, um, he is also likely a currently or about to be the world record holder for being a podcast guest. That is to say being on more podcasts as a guest and anyone else in history. And I guess if you’re in the business of booking people on podcasts, uh, um, then you know,
that that’s what, that’s what you would want to go. And, and Tom and his firm are my exclusive representatives. That is to say they represent me when folks want me to go on their shows. Matt Johnson is the founder of pursuing results.com and, uh, that they are a leading podcast production house and, um, they produce world class high quality podcast primarily for startup entrepreneurial businesses as well as a larger enterprises. Matt is also the cohost of a smash hit podcast called real estate uncensored. And um, he’s the producer of legends and losers, and without Tom and Matt, there would be no legends and losers. So here they are. Tom and Matt. Podcasting. What, let’s talk maybe a little bit about the state of podcasting. Where, where do you think we’re at with podcasting?
Tom, I’ll let you go first on that one. Oh, wait a minute. Before we do that, let me interrupt myself. Tom, how many podcasts have you been on? Tom? Over a thousand. Insanity. So, so help me understand this. How long have you been going on podcasts? I’m four years. So you know, when people say, well you do the math, I can’t do the math. So it helped me with the math. Let’s call it four years. How many is that a year? That’s 250 a year. So what’s that? Five a week. That’s it averages about one a day. But there were times where I was doing eight or 10 a day just trying to get him in. I mean, I would, I would speak to any podcast at any time, weekends, nights, a Australian ones. I’d get up in the middle of the night to do a podcast or interview phyllis.
Phyllis diller used to talk about that. She, uh, she, uh, she’d speak at the opening of an envelope. I would do that with the podcast. You’ve got a podcast. Sure. What do you want to talk about? I want to be guests of like zero point two times. Rob was coming on. So to what end? Like what, you woke up one day and said, hey, I’m going to go on a thousand podcasts. Like what? What made you decide that you needed to go on a thousand podcasts? Tom? Well, one, if you’re going to be, you know, helping other people, you’ve got to figure out the mistakes yourself and you know, that whole thing of checklists are written in blood and it’s better if it’s somebody else’s blood. And I always say that, you know, we’ve got the checklist that we give all of our clients and most of that blood is mine. So made every stupid mistake out there. And really to me it was just building my network. I mean this, I started going on these before I really had something to promote because, you know, what were you, what were you doing? What are you talking about on these podcasts? Just marketing or,
Well, anything life I was going to say inbound marketing. I, I went on, fatherhood is leadership and talked about, you know, my experience as a dad. I went out to new dads podcast and I’m like, my youngest is at that time, 16 years old, I don’t remember what it was like to be a new dad, but they asked questions and I answered them as best as I could. You know, from 16 years.
You’re a new dad. Old Dad.
Well, I guess new is sort of a, a, a
relays or a relative thing. I guess maybe if the child is under 35, you’re still a new tad if perspective.
I’m newer than my dad was.
Yeah, there you go. There you go. I was going to say something miserable about millennials, but I decided not to really tell you.
To me it was about building the relationships and if somebody asked me it’s like I’m not going to turn down that it’s so easy to do it, to give them a half hour, 45 minutes of your time and I was always amazed at the people you could meet and you know, today your network is proportional to your net worth, you know, and so from that standpoint of like who can I meet, who can I learn something from? Because like one of my quotes is always what’s ordinary to you is amazing to others.
And so it was always just randomly. Well, I probably said it from somebody else. I think I heard you. I think I heard you say that recently. Maybe in one of your videos. I love your videos. You’re so earnest. Do you know that your earnest, you just like the background? Yeah,
all the time because if I get it just right, you can see a miniature talky walk behind I think.
Yeah. So Matt, what you need to know is tom sends me videos from like walking around his property and shit, you know, and he’s talking to me on his iphone and he’s walking me around and it. What’s the donkey’s name? Frodo and Sam. Yeah, Frodo, exactly. Frodo and Sam. And, and one of them’s like humping him in the butt and stuff with its nose and it’s great. But you don’t have any chickens, do you?
No chickens. Last year we had a pig. Um, and uh, so, uh, I guess chickens are probably the next thing when my granddaughter wants chickens will get chickens.
You got to get some baby dinosaurs running around. Tell him you think you have kids. Your life is not complete yet. Yeah, forget the kids, forget it. You are way more heartache than they’re worth after. After we come back from California. That will be the next thing. So Matt’s been hanging out here at the, uh, the, uh, shall we call it Jim’s and losers international headquarters? Yeah, exactly. Why don’t we call it that? Yeah. And uh, as you know, we have a small farm here, a small garden.
And so you’ve been getting to know the hands, haven’t you? Matthew?
I have. It’s a, it’s an interesting process. They’re all very, um, I would have never guessed that a hen can have a personality, let’s put it that way. But they have very distinct personalities and when they want to make their voice heard, they insist upon making it hurt. They did not let you ignore them.
Yeah. Yeah. Do you have a favorite yet or?
Yeah. Yeah. I mean, you can’t, can’t go wrong with the hand that says her own name.
Right? She says her name. You’ll hold her. Yeah. Oh my gosh. So are you, is it possible, Tom, you can go to the Guinness Book of World Records for being on the most podcast. Is that a, is that a thing you’re working on? Uh, actually I reached out to them. Do you know that you can like ask them to be any record for anything? They came back and said, well, it’s not a verifiable a record that we have. They have the most number of podcast interviews if you’re doing the interview yourself, but not to be a guest. So I’m just going for the unofficial, maybe the lessons because if you sent them a list of did I just go night night here? If you sent them the list of a podcast guest, Tom Schwab, Tara, you win, right? Uh, if they, if they would recognize it
and then I think just the, the goal is you want to be crowned and then you want them to have like a public notice system so that they just have to take out like a two line ad in like the, my Toledo, Ohio Tribune or something like that. Just to let them know the world know that hey, unless you respond otherwise with an itemized list of all the podcasts you’ve been on, Tom Schwab is the king. You want that to run a nice small market newspaper just to blow public notice. And
Tom Schwab, king of podcast interviews. The thing is, is that as long as you’re the king, you know, it doesn’t matter if you’re dethrone, you can say I was the king at one time. That’s right. Are you aware of anyone who’s been on anywhere near a thousand podcasts? Not that I know of. Do you know of anybody who’s done 500? We’ve got a client that this done over 500 or Walker has done over 500. That’s how he built his entire business from being obscure to a claim. I mean, when he started out, uh, you know, it was like he was in the witness protection point, Aaron Walker and the name of the company is viewed from the top. And so the funny part is, is that when we first started talking with them, it’s like, okay, Aaron Walker was a football player, so if you want to rank for that keyword, maybe you should change your name.
That wasn’t an option. And then view from the top is this company and that was like a bad movie. Uh, and that ranked really high. So you started out. So Seo, he’s over to x, right? He didn’t want to change his company name, who started in a bad movie or something like that. Exactly. And after you know, enough podcast or an abuse, he got the back links and everything and I’m matching that. He ranked for his own name and for his own company named. Wow, this is going to be great when you take on the next step, which acts as a client 500 podcasts so that, that’s the mark for the clients. Right. That’s an insane number of podcasts. Granted, I’ve done 500 this year. Tom feels like that at the pace that you’re on, you’re on a pace because he’s, uh, he’s probably out three and a half years old.
So. So he spent doing them regularly. He did it, you know, to launch his business. He went on another round to launch his book. Um, so, uh, he’s made the circuit quite a few times. How many podcasts have I done? Tom, do you have any idea? Oh Man, I, I guess you’re probably, I would guess 75 or so. I think so that was 50 plus. I’d say 50 to 75. Is there any way we can. Can we look it up on something or is that apparently is now go. We can look it up on your dashboard there or we could just google it too. Well, no, seriously the coolest guy. And everything and count them all. Or, or if you say, hey, Google, how many podcasts is lock had been on? It actually comes back and tells you now, is that what’s going on with Google now?
There’s one that’s like Otto radio, Ott. Oh. And you can search for guests there too. So if I went there I could pull up all your interviews. Okay. But I don’t know this. We don’t have to torture ourselves. But. So you think it’s around 75? Yeah. Wow. Fucking a. So tell him you mentioned that the checklist and blood, right? So what are, what are, let’s say two or three things that you’ve learned from being in the hot seat yourself that then you are able to steer clients in the right direction on a. I mean, it’s the easy stuff like the equipment first, right? So before we got on here, I checked my microphone. Uh, you know, I’ve been to interviews where I rebooted my computer instead of talking about a $500 mic I got picked up by the internal mic and nothing ruins your credibility more than when people think you’re calling in from a bathroom stall and they just, they just listened, just waiting for the next flush.
Um, so that was totally embarrassing. Other paper. Yeah. Other things like, um, you know, uh, I learned this one, you know, taking your dropbox and turn the sink off because I was on one interview, everything’s going well and you know, somebody sent you a video file that you’ve been asking for and all of a sudden, uh, that’s the end of the interview because your bandwidth goes and nothing. But there’s little things like that turning off sync for dropbox. I think that’s just good policy all the way around. Uh, yeah. So it’s little things like that. And I’m an engineer by degree, so we’re always testing things, you know, how many calls to action you should
have on a podcast where you should send them a things like that. Uh, and you know, even that it’s evergreen, right? So we’re recording this in 2017, which you don’t want to make some reference to that like I just did because somebody is going to listen to their podcast guesting of you, tom asked, right? Somebody will, will be listening to it like 20 slash 20 and go, this is great. But if you’re like, oh, merry Christmas, everybody, they’re going to go, well, you know, it’s summer. What? What’s this got to do with it? So
yeah. So avoid talking about the now make it evergreen. Yeah, yeah. No, but like, you know, listen, when Shit’s going down like these hurricanes or you know, like there’s some stuff that goes on in our world, at least for me, pulls on my heartstrings that for one reason or another I feel compelled to at least touch on. Right? But like I’m Morgan Wright who was one of your guests, right? Every time guy is so fucking funny
Wow. Smart. You know, because you say to me, hey lockhead want to have a computer security expert on the show. And I think, Hey Tom, want to take a hockey stick to my nuts, right? Like, that sounds terrible. He was awesome. And he’s a cop too. He’s a very manly man and funny as shit. Yeah.
Oh, he’s got all the great stories. But like before the election, everybody wanted them to talk about that and make predictions and all the rest of that. Well, if you do something like that, uh, by the time it comes out, you’re either going to look like a legend or a loser depending on which way it turns out.
Boom. Yeah. Very true. Yeah. So you think we should speak in timeless tomes
and always works for me. I don’t know what date is, you know, it’s an entrepreneur. It’s like you wake up on Monday. Is it Friday? I don’t know.
Yeah. All right. So be timeless. Got It. Now, which is funny because I break that all the time with, uh, with my podcast because it’s actually live on facebook. So it’s like we can’t get away with not referencing what’s going on, but the audience understands that. And that’s part of the, the ion, although maybe not the allure, but as part of it, it’s built in, it’s baked into the identity of the show that is a live show first and the podcast second. So you can get away with that under certain circumstances. But if you’re a guest on somebody else’s show and it’s not like that, they’re not doing it live, then yeah, absolutely. You take that into account and like stay within that format.
Yeah. So, so sorry, go ahead Tom.
And just following the lead of the host. Don’t interrupt Christopher, the host just like I did, but you don’t receive it.
See, this is the thing, and it’s funny because, and I just did it to you. This is legends and losers. We’re a dialogue show. We’re not an interview show. If I was, you know, Terry Gross or Walter Cronkite or you know, pick whoever you want to pick your legendary interviewer. I wouldn’t interrupt
the way I do, but I’m not an interviewer. We’re having a conversation and friends interrupt each other all the time. And look, I know it can even be annoying to me too, but it’s a different thing. Right, right. It’s a conversation. It’s a dialogue actually that that gets us to an interesting point. Tom, that was an excellent segue. I liked that. You liked that. That was very smooth, very, very smooth. I, I find it fascinating that so many podcasters, and Matt and I were talking about this earlier today, earlier today, we were looking at the top podcasts in the vast majority of them are npr shows like seven of the top 10. Yeah. And Espn in New York Times or a couple of the other ones. Right. And so I look at that and I go, that’s just proof, at least in my opinion, I want to get your reaction that podcasting is in the first or second inning still on reason.
I say that is, those shows are fucking radio shows on the Internet and, and, and while there’s a place for that, and I, I love some of those shows myself, but why would we constrain ourselves to the medium that was when we’re in the medium that is, there’s a whole lot of things we can do in podcasting that you can’t do on the radio. And so it just shows me that the medium is not being exploited to me. I think we’re our own worst enemies. The time, you know, to call it a podcast. I asked my daughters one time, you know, they’re 18 and 21, what’s the pod stand for? And podcasts. And they just roll their eyes at me. I don’t know, dad, what’s it stand for? It makes no difference to them. They don’t know what an Ipod is and some people, you ask them, you know, do you listen to podcasts?
I’m like, no. And then you start to find out, well, they listen to Sirius xm radio. While a lot of that is repurposed content. Uh, last summer I got a call from a couple of buddies that I was in the navy with and they’re like, hey, I didn’t realize you were in town, let’s get together for dinner tonight. And I called him back and like, why did you think I was in, I think it was Tucson, Arizona, and we’re like, we heard you on the morning drive this morning. And it was just a repurposed interview that the local radio station to picked up. So from that standpoint, wasn’t a podcast, you know, was it radio? I don’t think it really matters just from the standpoint of it’s that medium. And I agree with you, you know, we are so early on in this, uh, you know, depending on which study you look at, they’ll say, you know, 30 to 40 percent of the people listen to podcasts. And you know, some people will say, well, when do you think it’s going to get to 100? It’s like never right? Because radio and television haven’t gotten to 100, but there’s some people that are audio learners, you know, I’d listen to audible books. I when I feel like I’m lying sometimes when I say, you know, I read a book because the truth is I probably just listened to it. Yeah, because some of us just learn that way. I mean,
I know it makes a big difference for me and I always love talk radio, but let’s dig into some of the numbers. Edison research a drop some numbers earlier this year, and Jay Baer I thought did a good job of kind of packaging up their research on his website. So here’s a couple of the points. A 112 million Americans have listened to a podcast
that’s up 11 percent from 2016 and overall 40 percent. To your point, Tom, of Americans aged 12 or older, have listened to a podcast at some point that he says, I love this. Sixty 7 million Americans listen to podcasts monthly. That’s more common than Catholicism. That’s Jay Baer. And he says, 42 million Americans listen to podcasts weekly, five times more than go to the movies. Who the fuck those movies? And then he says, podcast listening, uh, is growing steadily but not accelerating year over year growth, growth rates have tended to be in the 10 to 20 percent in increases podcast. Fans listened to five shows per week and the average listener subscribes to six shows and two thirds of podcasts are listened to on phones or tablets and get this. This one blew me away. Eighty five percent of listeners here all or most of a podcast.
Yeah, that’s insane. I’ve heard another fact that says on average, higher educated and higher paid, which I think just means that they’re less than and looking, I think podcast listeners are way better looking and have considerably more sex than non podcast listener. So that’s true because they’re so attractive. What I would. I heard it that explained that make more money. Does this podcast make my ass look big? It’s not the podcast.
Oh, that’s the wrong answer. Top. Come on. The automatic answer. No, no. That podcast. Make sure as the great, very slimming and podcast looks very good on you. Very good on you. Okay. But yeah, I would tend to agree like we were talking about this earlier today, that uh, the podcasting is in kind of the stage of where online advertising was in the banner ad stays, right? So you’re taking a billboard, you take the exact same thing, you throw it up on a website, you think it’s going to work in your world. It’s not, there’s nothing native about that. There’s no, you’re not taking advantage of the actual format itself. And we’re, we’re, I don’t know where podcasting as a name is going to go, the podcast, the name podcasting, but go away. It might just end up being a distribution platform for a show. And your show can be anything. It can be a live streaming show. It can be a recorded behind the scenes show. It can be dialogue, it can be interviews, it can be prepackaged segments like NPR stuff. I think there’s room out there for everything. But like I asked Chris Brogan
when he was on legends and losers. What’s the difference between a video blog and a video podcast? Is this a video blog? Yeah, it’s basically length. That’s the only. That’s the only case she can make a difference is the average length if that. Now here’s a data point that blows my mind. So if you start to do the research on the top podcast, as we talked about, a meaningful number of them are in pr. You see reported numbers in the 100 million downloads a month range. Yeah, we’re talking about NPR is top shows, right? To top podcasts in the world. And I, uh, I think it was a little earlier this past summer, uh, Joe Rogan announced on his show $130 million downloads a month. Now get your head around this. The Emmy awards were just on TV and you know, that’s a fairly popular show. And the reported number of viewers for this year’s Emmy awards were 11 point 4 million on CBS and that was even with last year according to the Los Angeles Times.
So now think about this for a sec. A 11 point $4 million for the emmy awards. Rogan does 130 million a month. Let’s say he averages three shows a week. I don’t know if that’s right, but it sorta seems pretty right. So, and let’s say there’s five weeks in a month, so that’s 15 shows and one that’s eight point 6 million downloads per show. So an episode of Joe Rogan where he and his buddies are smoking pot drinking Jack Daniel’s talking about the fights get eight point six and it costs them $0 to produce and $0 to distribute gets eight point 6 million downloads and the fucking emmy awards gets 11 and a half. If you look, that is purely a media by the numbers are amazing of what you would have to do to buy that much media. Yeah. And Matt, you told me awhile ago, is this still right?
Do you know that the average podcast, and there’s about $400,000, if I remember right? Um, gets about 200 downloads a shows that still based on what you guys know about right? As far as I know. So you think about it, you okay Rogan’s at eight point six and the average podcast is at $200. But even in a business context, if you are a, you know, quote unquote thought leader and you want it to perpetuate your fatness around and wanted to perpetuate your thought and this, hey, hey, we’re, we’re drinking scotch and be a key quote of this show. And so, um, if you were invited to give a speech
to a local, something, something gathering of whatever type of executive or leader or whatever the fuck you talk to have 200 people, um, you know, and they were going to treat you well and so forth and so on, you might consider going to give that talk. I talk in front of it, 200 of the right people for you. Tell me Tom. But for a lot of business, want to be thought leaders. That’s it. That’s a big opportunity if you’re going to get like your ass trained at toastmasters and even what you $100 sounds like a small number. If they’re a qualified $200, could be a very important 200 to speak to. I spoke at a, a meeting I’ll probably three or four months ago up at East Lansing. Great. I get invited by the hub spot user group having a good time during the talk and you went to the Hubspot user group in East Lansing, Michigan, east.
I mean, that’s, that’s a big one, but I had to stop in the middle of. I love you for doing that tone. You know what the abbreviation is? It’s the hugs group. Oh, isn’t that nice? Nice man. I had to stop in the middle of it and go and go because they’re so close to Canada. They’re so nice. A north of most parts are some parts of Canada. So I went there and it’s like in the middle of it, I had to say this is the smallest group of people I have talked to in months. Right. It was like 75 people at great crowd. Loved being there, but it was like I had to drive hour and a half to get there. Uh, was out there drinking the free drinks and everything and the drive a home. I always nice. Yeah. But you know, what was that? Probably five hours to speak to 75 people. Whereas you know, you get on a podcast, average podcast is going to be bigger than that. Well, yeah, and that’s kind the interesting thing. It’s like a. The numbers don’t have to be huge to have a huge impact depending on what you’re up to. Right. So there’s. You guys know what pickle ball is? No, but we’re now. We’re intrigued now. A while you’re drinking scotch. Yes. I’m sure you can. Is this, is this conversation about the trend in the sexual direction, Tom?
No, not that. Not that versed. Okay. I mean, look, this is legends and losers, but still, you know, explicit rating just for mentioning pickleball. I guess it’s some indoor like ping pong game. Well, there is six podcasts devoted to pickle ball. If you had the best pickleball equipment, how would you ever target listeners? If I wanted to be the category king of pickup equipment, how would I get to my audience? I just do you start a podcast right? That or start a television station a devoted to that. To me, one is a whole lot. The other incredible
face, like really with a smartphone, you can launch a broadcast network essentially if you want it to go that cheap with it, right?
Yeah, sure. Can. You can do stuff like anchor the APP to record like you essentially if you want to do like a just a use spoken word podcast. You could hook up a smart lab into your iphone and start a podcast on anchor. Just record it,
Bam. It’s out there.
Wow. Yeah, very cool stuff. We live in a brave new world, but um, I, I want it to. You guys have both said something along the lines of podcasting is the new blogging, and I saw this, there was an article in the Canada’s Globan mail about a year ago and that was the exact headline. Podcasting is the new blogging and I’m interestingly enough, I didn’t realize they referenced it in the article.
Ge has a podcast, General Electric,
and it was number one in the US itunes store. And then in Canada, RBC, which is the Royal Bank of Canada, has a popular podcast, Sodas, shopify and slack is a Canadian company and they have major podcasts. Okay.
So it’s like, Gee, he’s got one. And then the other thing that’s interesting is podcasting is taken off in Silicon Valley. There was an article in fortune, let me grab it, says venture capital firms are really into podcasting. And they put together a list of all of the VC firms that have podcasts. Here it is, and I won’t read them all, but you know, a Andreessen Horowitz has a really popular one. The, a 16 Z podcast. And I’m, there’s a whole bunch on your Kleiner Perkins has one. Y combinator has one a scale ventures has one gray lock has one of my buddies at bedrock avalon, et cetera. I mean there’s some pretty pretty serious firms and they’re sharing some pretty awesome shit that you could never, you know, get into in any other way before. And so I guess all that said, guys like, you know, where do you think podcasting is as, as a, a, a business, a business tool or a marketing, you know, something that you should have in your marketing arsenal.
And I just look at it as, you know, I spent way too much money on a marketing Mba that all it, you know, I should have gone back to the, what my grandparents knew that marketing is just starting a conversation with somebody that could be ideal customer. So just starting it from that standpoint and how do you want to do that? Do you want to do with them billboards with email, with conferences? And if you look at that, you know, you just want to start a with somebody that
could be an ideal customer. Podcasting is a pretty easy way to do that. Or even from the standpoint of being a guest on other people’s podcasts. To me that’s, that’s even better return on investment there.
Well there’s a lot there so that we can potentially talk about. But as far as podcasting, being the new blogging, it’s kind of interesting because, you know, blogging was something that, you know, just your top kind of influencers did. And of course everybody kind of jumps on the bandwagon. Everybody has one and that. So that’s fine. And so the debate is, do we need more podcasts? Right? Does everybody need a podcast? Well, why not? You know, I mean, it’s, when you get right down to it, podcasting to me is one of the most easily leveraged and scaled up, you know, scalable forms of creating content. I mean, Chris, if I told you to sit down and write me a 500 word article, first of all, you’d punched me in the face, but if I sat down and said 100 words for sure. Yeah, exactly.
But if I sat down and said, Hey, I’m going to, let’s have a chat for half hour and then I’m going to give this to somebody and they’re gonna work their magic and they’re going to get a transcription and then they’re going to turn that into an article. You’d be like, great all day long. And so yeah, it’s stuff like that to where I don’t think it’s so much matters. Like you mentioned the, the average podcast, getting a couple hundred downloads, who cares? The cream rises to the top, the people that suck, we’ll try it for awhile and they’ll be out of the game and that’s fine. Um, but even if you feel like you do suck, still get into it and let’s find out. Maybe you’re good. Especially if you put the reps in. I mean, Tom, you’ve, you’ve definitely got the reps as a, as a guest. I mean, you know what it’s like to start off feeling like you suck and just plowing through it and eventually you get good at it.
I would agree to disagree on that because I blogged for a long time and I always thought I sucked at blogging. Right? It was always a homework assignment and for me, um, you know, English is my second language. I’m not sure what my first one was, but now I can talk. I might, most of my blogs be dictated and then go to rev.com and then have a va in the Philippines, cleaned them up. So I, so I sounded, you know, even half educated. So for me it’s easier to speak than it is to write. And I think from that standpoint, uh, is it a video? Is it a blog? I think it’s so easy to repurpose content. No, give it to them in the way they want. So some people will watch this as a video because they like to watch it. Other ones will listen to it at two x speed. Um, other people could listen or read the transcript, whatever, you know, it’s you, you produce it in whatever format you like and let them consume it in whatever format they like.
Yeah. The thing about that that blows me away is podcasting,
if you use the medium, allows you to, um, allows you to accomplish things that were never possible. So for example, if I think about our episode with Judge Kelvin, filer from Compton, where else can you experience a, I forget exactly how long the show is, but an hour and a half, maybe even two hours, but a lengthy dialogue with a sitting superior court judge where the judge talks about everything from what it’s like to be the judge in a murder trial and listened to victim impact statements when assessing sentencing to his love of Karaoke, growing up with his father who was the founder of the Naacp in Compton, and really being literally at the birth of the civil rights movement, overcoming alcoholism and everything in between. There’s no other like if there was, and I don’t mean to pick on anybody, I’ll, I’ll, I’ll, I’ll, I’ll reference a show that I think it’s amazing that I had tremendous respect for and I mean no disrespect to 60 minutes.
It’s a great show. If there was a 60 minutes feature on judge filer and hey, those of you had 60 minutes because I know you’re listening, you should do a feature on judge filer, but here would be the, the, the, the challenge you would hear about this extraordinary man and in between commercial breaks and setups and intros and outros and all that shit you would get. How long guys? How many minutes of of judge filer would you get on? Sixty minutes? Six and a half. That’s not 15, right? Nope. And so here’s my thesis in a war. The more tweets Kardashians in emojis there are. That is to say as, as, as Eric, uh, a wine Meyer said on legends and losers, the world doesn’t need more bullshit, right? So as the world just backs the bullshit truck up and keeps delivering all this crap, right? I, I tweeted something recently, I’m beginning to wonder, is twitter going to be the new myspace?
Because it’s just, you know, my friend and guest on legends and losers, Adam Hoenig said that twitter is just like screaming in a nightclub now. Like nobody’s engaging in anything. It’s just like everybody’s yelling, myself included, by the way, um, but my point is the more sort of inane, inconsequential, irritating bullshit there is in the world, if you believe for every action, there’s an equal and opposite reaction. There seems to be a huge part of the world that’s craving something that’s real, that’s authentic, that delves into topics that matter, uh, that isn’t holier than thou, you know, that gets into shit, right? And this to me, if you’re a person in craving that there’s no other medium for that, that I’m aware of, [inaudible], because if you take judge filer as an example, aren’t gonna do it on 60 minutes, aren’t going to be transcribed that dialogue and put it in a blog. No one’s going to read it, myself included.
And so to me, all that says, this is an incredibly unique medium that’s just beginning to be explored because it’s a place for, um, something very in depth. Something very real to happen. What 60 minutes already has like that. They give those little clips. If you want to see more about this story, go to the website. But even there, it’s all edited video, right? So they picked out what they wanted. It’s not like the entire interview that you had with the judge there, you know, and that’s another interesting thing. And look at different people want different formats and I appreciate that. And there are some very highly produced shows that I very much enjoy. So you don’t want to be very clear about that. That said for, for us anyway, that’s not what it’s about. So we almost never right matt, edit legends and losers.
No, very little. Basically just uh, taking out technical issues and weird, awkward gaps. Uh, that’s mostly about it. We try to keep the conversation as raw and authentic as possible. And so that’s a different thing, right? Because, and, and were sort of hinting or touching on this a little bit earlier, I’m amazed. Most podcasters, Tom, they make a decision in their formats whether they realize it or not, I don’t know that they do that. They’re going to be an interview show and if I’m interviewing you, you’re being interviewed. Right? And so you got your sound bites and your talking points and all that Shit and you got your shit ready to go and I got my questions and yeah, and some podcasters want to plan the podcast out ahead of time so they’ll send you the question so that you can get ready and all that.
And I get that. And there’s a very clear role for that in our case. We’re not any of that. Uh, I had a dialogue recently within upcoming guests and she sort of wanted to do that, like let’s get together, let’s have a call because many ways we could take this and we can sort of plan this thing out. And I explained to her, you know, as politely as I knew how can’t wait to have you on and we’re doing fucking none of that planning is for people that are smart enough to make it up as I go.
That’s a great line. Yeah. But it is a different thing. And the thing about podcasting is, because it’s such a, I guess, flexible form of distribution, it really comes down to what show do you want, because the sky is the limit, you know, and we’re not like the, the authentic dialogue kind of category that we’re looking to dominate with legends and losers that will not be the last category. This creative and podcasting now will be many, many more to come. And there’ll be other category kings of those categories and that’s great for them and good for them, right? We want to be the category King of the authentic raw, unfiltered dialog podcast. And I think there is a, there’s a segment of the world, like you said, like, um, what is it they, they said that’s what does massive information overload create a lack of will.
It’s attention, right? So that’s the equal, you know, reaction to that. So we have all this stuff. So yeah, I mean an overflow and over abundance of short form content or whether it’s Kim Kardashians selfies or uh, or emojis perish the thought, or if it’s just NPR super produced 20 minute, get you from the commute. And back kind of stuff. Yeah. It’s going to create this demand for something that’s more real. It’s the same reason why we got quotes, reality television, but with podcasts and we actually can get super real because now we have a pot, you know, like a distribution format that allows us to send out freaking two hours of conversation and as long as people listen to it. Okay. Yeah. And I mean different podcasts who’s had different objectives, but no, even the average podcast are still going to get 200 listeners for some people going to speak to 200 people would be. They’d be stoked if they were 200 of the right people. Yeah. Yeah. So, so tom, based on what you’ve seen your, your booking a ton of clients on, you know, a lot of interview podcasts and dialogue, podcasts and things like that. So have you seen like in the last three or four years, anything shift with the popularity of interview podcasts? Because there’s more and more coming out every week. Have you seen overall the numbers do, have you seen audiences preferences change or anything like that?
I think if you look at it overall, when NPR came in and some of the bigger names, the quality went off, you know, it’s almost funny to listen to podcasts that will, you know, six or seven years ago. I mean it, it sounds like somebody’s recording straight to their computer and I think early on the skill wasn’t there both from the guests and the host, you know, now doing a good interview is tough. I’m asking a list of questions is much easier. So I think as the medium grew, the interview skills grew and I think we’re seeing more and more good interviews are good conversations and less, you know, here are the 10 questions I ask every guest and it’s tough because you’ve got to listen to the answer in order to ask
the next question. It’s a different skill.
Yeah. Very. Yeah. I mean for, for me, when I listened to an interview, podcasts like that where it’s formulaic and they’re going to ask the same five questions each time of each guest. Like, I’m, I’m already, I’m already out the door. I’m already not interested. Now that may just be me,
but, but I mean there are some people, um, and, and in certain media forms I, you know, I like a formula, right? So like I take a NBC News,
was it Lester Holt does that as well. Yeah. And so, you know, I dvr that right? And that, that show has a very clear format and they always leave you with a happy story about something American. Very right. And I kind of, I’m good. They leave me with a happy story at the end. And so human beings are creatures of habit and I, I certainly understand, you know, that need a that said, let me see if I can find this quote because it’s so fucking funny. Talk amongst yourselves.
As I say, I’ve been on a podcast before where I, you know, they were just going through their list of questions and I swear if I would have answered the question, I just killed my wife and her bloody bodies at my feet, they would have gone okay. And they would have gone onto their next question is like, you’re not even listening here. Why don’t we just, I’ll, I answered the questions and send you the sound file and that’s it. The end of part one. Now, please turn the tape over. Press play and strap yourself in for part two.