Listen to the full interview here ( 54:24 minutes)
I’ve now gotten past the 10th episode, I just published the 11th one this morning, early this morning. So I’ve, I’ve crossed that, cross that threshold where everybody else quits the, uh, the thing is, is after our last conversation, I’d come out of the podcast if I was the only one listening to it. That was so much fun. So if other people get to listen in, hey, that’s all the better.
Welcome to the Midlands, control of your time, your money, your life matters to you, then you’re in the right place. And now here’s your host painted Fritz. Hey, welcome back to metlife
straight. This is session number 12 and this marks a pivotal point in the, um, in the journey of the midlife mastery podcast because today I got to interview somebody for the first time for the show and this is the first of what will be many interviews on this show. So I’m really, really pleased that I got to kick it off with a guy, one of the nicest guys I’ve met, fellow called Tom Schwab who created a company called interview valet. And essentially what Tom does is he helps small business owners and entrepreneurs, solopreneurs, people with a particular skill or passion or a Bank of knowledge that they’ve accumulated over the years and he helps him to get featured on leading podcasts, the kind that their prospects prospects are already listening to now. I think we’re at a crossroads here with podcasting and this is part of the reason why I decided to get involved in podcasting because it’s really starting to hit the mainstream now.
And if you’re one of those people who’s been developing some sort of a side project and you’d been wanting to gain visibility and build an audience and build that all important like know and trust factor. Well, I really believe now that podcasting, particularly as a guest, is the best way to achieve those aims. And Tom’s going to explain why. Let’s get straight into the interview with Tom Schwab from interview valet. I read your book as soon as I found out about it and I read it in one sitting. And it really is a brilliant book. Um, you know, I’ve read a lot of books and I continue to read a lot of books and it’s pretty rare these days that a book, um, surprises me and actually keeps me engaged for the whole book and it’s, it almost never happens that I sit down and read a book in one sitting that I mean that visually just doesn’t happen and I didn’t just read it in one sitting because you and I were going to have this conversation, but, um, obviously it was very relevant to what I’m doing, but it is an extremely practical and engaging book that is totally devoid a fluff and nonsense, which is so refreshing.
They studies because I, I mean, I don’t know whether you agree or not, but I reckon most of the books out there, like Seth Goden said, could be 10, 20 pages long and that would be enough, you know. Um, but publishers typically want them to be 250 pages long. So they filled them with a lot of crap.
Exactly. And, you know, um, right now I’m working on some videos for a little course that goes along with that too. Um, and I’m trying to keep the video short. It’s right. I’ll put some resources and other links on there, but uh, don’t have to explain everything. People, people are smart. Give them, give them the synopsis and they’ll figure it out. Yeah. Yeah. And I think it’s
nice to when you, um, you have just enough information there for people to actually start applying some of it because if you look at something from 12 different angles, then you just kind of get so overwhelmed that you think are buggered. I’m not going to try any of it, you know, it’s just too hard. It does. It is, it really this complicated. But if you strip it down to the bare essentials and say, really, you need to do this first, do that second, don’t worry about this. That’s not important. They do that, then it’s doable. And then you can screw up a little bit along the way. But you know, at least you get the framework in their new. You’re actually doing something.
And I look at it like a recipe, you know, uh, you don’t, you don’t need an entire cookbook to tell you how to make a, a chocolate cake. Right. Give me the ingredients, tell me how to do it. And uh, uh, you know, uh, doesn’t, doesn’t mean I’ll make it perfect the first time, but, uh, I’ll get the idea.
Yeah. Yeah. So anyway, I love that book and that’s going to be my bible now. I’m going to refer to that all the time. So anyway, the way I found you was, I’m not longer. I’ve been following Pat Flynn for ages who you probably know. And um, I was watching a video, I think it was a live facebook video where he was walking around a podcasting conference a few months ago over in the U. S, I don’t remember the name of the convention, but it was podcast movement. Okay. He was walking around, well, you’d notice your company was there, but he was walking around just pointing out the different exhibitors and sort of illustrating how, what a growing movement, the podcast community years. And that was because I was a student of his recent pair up podcasting course, which is brilliant because I’ve been wanting to do podcasting for ages and you know, again, this is very similar to your book.
His course was very well structured and very clear and sequential and you knew exactly what you had to do next and you knew what you didn’t need to do, you know. And so, um, he mentioned to you guys at that conference and I thought, well, this is going to be one of the biggest challenges when I finally get to the point where I want to start bringing guests on the show once I run out of blood. Relatives need some other people. And you know, I want interesting people on the podcast. And when he mentioned, mentioned Joe Company Interview Valet, I thought, well, how brilliant is that? You know, there’s this company that actually sources quality guests who are prepared, who they coach, who they know are going to perform well, who have an interesting story to tell who have relevant information for your target demographic. And they line them up for you. I thought that’s brilliant. So I reached out to you guys and I said, look, I’m a nobody, I’m a minnow still. I’ve only just started, but you know, what do I need to do, have, what point do I need to get to, to qualify to be considered for some of your guests on my podcast. And well, you were nice enough to come on as the first Guinea pig. So I’m really grateful for that.
I don’t, I don’t think that, uh, you’re a, you’re looking for minnows here yet at least. Uh, I looked at myself in the mirror, I don’t look like a minnow maybe, maybe. Okay.
Fat Middle. Well I’m, you know, I’m the nobody, so I’m really glad that you given the cheer a big somebody has decided to come on the show. So I said, tell me about interview valet. What is it and who does it help?
Right? So we focus on helping coaches, speakers, authors, emerging brands, and really comes down to the point of a lot of people are talking about you got to break through the noise. I don’t think that’s possible anymore. Most people don’t have the money to do that. Um, and all they’re doing is adding to the noise. Uh, I believe that marketing at its heart is starting a conversation with somebody that could be an ideal customer and there’s no better medium to do that with than podcasts and you know, doing a podcast is great but is a lot of hard work. We look at it as how can you get in on that conversation that’s already going on as a podcast guest and uh, so we help authors, speakers, coaches, brands get on podcasts that their ideal customers are already listening to and get them to know, like, and trust them and really start that conversation in that relationship.
[inaudible] and the statistics are mind blowing. I couldn’t believe the kind of, um, response rate that a guest on a podcast gets compared to other forms of marketing.
We were amazed by that because a good blog, we’ll get you one to two percent. Um, but we were seeing response rates of 25 to 50 percent. We’ve had some podcasts that have been up to 75 percent. What when you think about it though, it’s not right because it’s not cold traffic. It’s almost like a personal introduction, right? So if your listeners love you, right, they, they tune in every week to hear you well if you’re introducing somebody and vouching for them. And that’s about as good as it gets. So if somebody listens for 30 or 45 minutes and they’re like, this is great, well of course they’re going to come there and start to engage and if they just listen to it and say, hey, you know, tom was interesting, but uh, then just move on. That’s fine too, because at the end of the day, you know, we don’t want more traffic, we don’t want more leads, we want more customers. So why not just get better leads and better traffic.
Yeah, I totally agree. And it’s a bit like, um, well my wife runs an online business. She’s had a number of a traditional bricks and mortar businesses here in Australia and overseas in China. And uh, now she runs a very successful online business and we’ve often talked about how much better it would be because business businesses, a high volume business, she sells thousands and thousands of products every month. And a Christmas time, you know, it’s not uncommon for us to have 40 sex of mile sitting there to be collected by the postal service everyday. And you know, we’ve often thought how much nicer would it be to sell 50 products a day for five times the value rather than 800 products, you know, with five bucks in each of them or whatever it is. You know. So yeah, it makes a lot of sense. Rather than casting a net really wide and using a shotgun approach, having a rifle approach and just talking to the people who are your best suited to serve. And it’s, yeah, go on.
And even the point of building a relationship with them, you know, even in the digital age, I still believe that people buy from those they know, like, and trust. And I guess if you’re selling, you know, if you’re selling gum chiclets or something like that, I guess it doesn’t much matter. But for most of the products, you know, um, people want to know who’s the person behind it, you know, is it a nameless, faceless company or is there, you know, is it a man and wife that are selling these from Holman da? Uh, there’s an interesting story that goes along with it. To me, that’s how you build a relationship and more lifetime value as opposed to just like a one off transaction. So I think there’s a benefit for, for all of that and uh, um, you know, to get people to, to know, to know, like, and trust you and not just, you know, hey was something I bought on Etsy or something I bought on Amazon.
Yeah. Yeah. And you know, the thing that intrigued me beyond just the incredible response rates that getting onto the right podcasts as a guest generates. The thing that really struck me too about this was there’s a lot of talk these days about, you know, converting what you know into a side hustle. A Chris Guillebeau is very famous Nas for a side hustle school apart from obviously he has all of his previous work. The term side hustle is huge now. It’s something that Gary Vaynerchuk talks about all the time and finding your passion and turning that into something that you can enjoy doing. It’s a popular popular topic, but most of us go down the same road of. We start blogging about something that we like or we start blogging on youtube or we use other mediums. We, we make stuff and we sell stuff. But the thing that really intrigued me about what you’re doing is that it allows it.
It has a potential for anyone who has built up some expertise or some interest or a passion in a particular topic. It gives them an opportunity to actually reach out to and develop an audience far more effectively than all the other mediums that people have been using to date. It’s sort of like, okay, um, you could blog or you can blog. Well, you could do other stuff and get on other channels where there is a captive audience. But if you have a particular skill that you’ve developed over decades or you know a lot about a particular topic and you want to get traction with that really quickly and get in front of the right people really fast, well here’s a new way to do it. Here’s a way that other people aren’t really actively promoting and yet it’s so incredibly effective to get your message, your skill, your passion, your interest out there. That’s what really intrigued me about what you’re doing with interview Valet
and Peter. I feel guilty sometimes when I explain this, especially to a podcaster, right? Because anybody that says doing a podcast as easy as either never done it or never done it well, it, all the great ones make it look easy. But there’s a lot of work that goes into that. And so we look at the return on investment. It’s like, okay, so Peter’s doing all the work on this and I get to come on and tell my story and everything. So I get just as much if not more return out of it with less investment. So from that standpoint, it’s a great hack and I think even the example you used there with Chris Guillebeau, you know, uh, of his side hustle school, well, you knew the person behind that. It wasn’t just the side hustle school and there could be 20 other people out there that have a course like the side hustle school, but you know, like, and trust Chris, he’s a great guy and so you’re building the brand as much and the personality and the story as much as anything.
Um, you know, it’s the trust in him. So really is that question of how can you get people to know, like, and trust you and you know, there’s, there’s different mediums out there. You could do it with billboards, you could do it with, with email, but I think after awhile it’s like every strategy has its expiration date. You know, when emails first came out, we all opened them up and then they became spam. Um, uh, same with other things. And I think podcasting is one of the few mediums where people will listen to you for 30 or 45 minutes. We were talking one time about, uh, if you went to a television station and said, well, you know, how much would I have to pay in order to talk with targeted people for 30 to 45 minutes and just say, you know, a thousand of them, you’d be amazed what that cost would be. And that’s not evergreen content. Right. That’s, if they’re not watching it at that time, they’re not going to see it, you know, as far as if you look at purely as a media buy, man, there’s, there’s nothing that can compete with that.
That’s so true. And what you just mentioned there about it not being evergreen content, a lot of the stuff out there it or traditional media channels is exactly. That is not evergreen. You know, if you don’t see it there in the answer. Same with social media, you know, if you’re not there to say it, when it pops into your feed, it’s gone. You know, it still exists there, but you’re not going to say it unless you go actively searching for it. And that’s not so easy. So yeah, that is a huge thing. Once it’s there, I mean this conversation we’re having now, it’s going to sit there and perpetuity and people will come onto the podcast a year from now and they’ll find it, you know, and they’ll be able to listen to it. It’s, it’s brilliant.
What do we start a coaching our guests and our clients on best practices? What are the things we always say is don’t mention seasons, right? So, um, if all of a sudden you wished somebody, hey, you know, merry Christmas, well it may be recorded right around Christmas time, but it may not go live until February and this is gonna sound really funny. And then there’s gonna be somebody three years later that’s, that’s listening to it in the middle of summer. I’m sorry, unless it’s in a, I wouldn’t even say summer because middle of summer is best Christmas. Christmas in Australia. Yeah. Okay. They’re there listening to July or August and they’re just going to go, well, that doesn’t make any sense. Our oldest customer, longest customers out now for years and he still gets traffic leads and customers from interviews that he did four years ago because when they hear it, it’s new to them.
Yeah, that’s right. And you know, it’s funny what you said before about um, and I agree with this idea too that, that podcasting is so much more personal. The personality of the people comes through which is very hard to deliver through almost any other medium by video. Um, and it does build up the know, like, and trust thing. And it’s funny how podcasting is now as an exciting new medium. It is, it is actually about as traditional as you can get because it’s a couple of people having a conversation and building up that trust and getting to know each other, whether it’s you and I having a chat here or it’s the listener getting to know both of us, you know, it’s very personal. And you know, Chris Guillebeau is that example. Yes. I got to know, like, and trust Chris because ironically he was mentioned on a podcast from other people who I know, like, and trust. You know, it was, um, it was a chase raves and um, Corbett Barr and Steph crowder on the fizzle show, you know, I’ve been listening to him for ages and I trust them and I know their history. And so when they mentioned someone like Chris, well first thing I do is jump on Amazon and, you know, get a couple of his books and random.
It’s interesting, you know, we’ve had this discussion before and like what’s the most intimate form of communication? And some people will say, well, it’s video, but when I watch videos, like, okay, is it their video makeup? Is that the video lighting? Are they, um, is this take one is uh, take three. Are they actually saying this or is it a teleprompter? Whereas like the best podcast, it’s like you and I sitting down at breakfast just talking and there’s somebody at the booth next to us that’s listening in and they don’t want to, they don’t want to leave before the conversation’s done. They can’t turn around because that just be rude. So instead they just sit there and listen. And I think those, those are the great podcasts. And, you know, if we stumble over some words out, so be it, you know, if, uh, if we’re laughing over each other, soapy it, it’s just a, an authentic dialogue.
Yeah, exactly. It’s natural. Now, tell me something I’m always curious about is how people end up, where they are, what the [inaudible] doing, what they’re doing. Um, you know, especially those pivotal moments where things changed rather dramatically or subtly, but lead to dramatic changes down the path. Now you graduated, graduated from the Naval Academy and 87 and then you went straight into a nuclear power plant. Can you tell us about that and then what you did after that?
Oh, it only makes sense looking in the rear view mirror. And it’s always a dangerous thing to ask somebody that’s say 50 years old. A question like that. It could be a long answer. But I grew up in the midwest of the United States. You know, I’d never been farther than, like 200 miles from home. A year later after joining the navy, I’d spent a week in Australia. I thought I had died and gone to heaven. Um, so when I got out, I, uh, was in the naval nuclear power program, I ran nuclear power plants on aircraft carriers and to me the big thing that I was told was get a stable job, stable career, put your time in and retire. Well, anybody that’s old enough to remember, uh, you know, 1991, the Soviet Union collapsed and you know, uh, our biggest competitor, if you want to call that a stopped playing the game.
So there was all kinds of cuts in the military. I had done everything I wanted to do, um, loved it. But I thought, okay, what’s the next thing in my life? So from there I went onto the corporate world, um, and did that, did sales marketing and then started my own business with that. But every part of that I learned something from like right now, I always, I say that I always think like an engineer when people say, well, my, my business is, is too complicated to put into a system. I’m like, they run nuclear reactors with, with people that are like 20 years old. If they can teach, you know, 20 year olds how to run a nuclear reactor safely, somebody can teach your business and that’s one of the things we have to. I just look at it and say, you know, what we do is not rocket science.
It’s not magic, it’s a system. And so we’ve figured out the system and just reproduce that and uh, um, you know, keep refining it and improving it. Um, and so I, I always say what I’m doing now is a compilation of everything I’ve learned up to this point. Yeah. Steve Jobs, right? Wasn’t either. You can only join the points that joined the dots in reverse. That’s right. And, and when you, when you explain it in reverse that it makes complete sense, but looking forward it was just like a, it made no sense. Yeah. So what brought you into the world of podcasting then? And more particularly, you know, starting interview Valet headed that I would have to say that as I sort of fell into it and one of the jokes we had the navy was, you have to no right answer when told, you know, you’ve got to be smart enough to recognize the right answer.
And one of the things that I believe is that our customers are always telling us the right answer right there, telling us what they love and what they load. So I had built up my first company using something called inbound marketing, using content to attract customers, uh, engaged leads, delight customers. And originally that was blogs, right? I built my first company just doing blogs and they worked great. And after I built it up and sold it, I was helping some friends that I was in a mastermind with. And one of the things I noticed that the blogs didn’t work nearly as well. And you know, so with that I hypothesized, could we use the same hack or trick that we used to use for guest blogging? Right when you first started a blog. But you could do your own. And nobody’s reading it or anything like that.
Or You could get your blog on a big site in a Huffington Post or Wall Street Journal, whatever the big site was for your industry. Yep. He’s getting in front of the right people, get the know, like, and trust and get traffic back. And so really it was a test, a hypothesis that said, could you do the same thing on podcasts? Go to an established podcast with an audience, get interviewed there, get that know, like, and trust. And when we first did it, Peter, I was amazed a, the traffic came back. It was almost immediate. The podcast I think launched at 7:00 AM by 7:30. We’re starting to get leads on it. And the leads were converting so much better, you know, that was the 25 to 50 percent visitor to lead. And a blog typically gets about one to two percent. So originally I thought, oh, it’s, it’s a fluke, right?
It was the personality, it was the niche. Um, and then we kept testing it and testing it for different people, different niches. And we found similarities between us. So we kept changing things, refining it, and found it. No podcast interview marketing is a real system that gives reproducible results with it. Uh, so with that, uh, you know, did it for a while, um, with a handful of clients that we started to teach it and had people came out and said, you know, I understand how it works, but I want to be the guest. You take care of all the rest. And uh, we heard that enough times that in 2015 we started to Beta test what would become interview valet, you know, a done for you podcast interview marketing system that allows our clients to be the talent and where the roadies that take care of everything.
Now. It’s brilliant. And the thing that strikes me too is that comparing the, um, the response rate of a blog post versus appearing as a guest on a podcast, I think the big difference is that on a blog post, um, it’s very difficult to convey to a person what your real personality is. Because when we’re writing our own stuff, we tend to be our own worst enemies. We, um, we constantly edit and read it and read it because we want to sound smart, we want to sound clever, we want to be informative, we want to engage the audience, you know, w we want to capture their interest and then move them forward to some kind of an action. And that’s really hard to do. But like Seth Godin said, you know, you might struggle to think of things to write about, but you know, writer’s block as common.
But talker’s block isn’t. I mean we can talk for hours, you know, and if you just having a conversation, well that’s easy and, and immediately you overcome this whole problem of how do I convey my personality, how do I come across as someone as genuine, you know, like I’ve been reading a number of people’s blogs for years and then I’ve gone on and seeing them on video. We’ll say to them on an interview with someone like Marie Folio and I think shit, that was really cool. I really liked him. Now, like, you know, I’ve been reading his stuff. He is and yes it’s good and yes, I’ve learned stuff, but God, now that I’ve seen him here and heard him speak or heard her speak and seen that person’s personality now I really liked them, you know, have finally overcome that hurdle and now I feel like I can have. Now I feel like I have a relationship with them because now I know what they really like as a person.
Very much so and different people communicate different ways. Right. I’m an engineer by degree. I always joked that English is my second language. I’m not sure what my first language is, but for me to write a blog post that’s a homework assignment, you know, to be honest, most of my blog posts I come up with the idea, I, I dictate it and then somebody transcribes it. Somebody else cleans it up and they put it up and make me look like I’m a, like, I’m educated, but, and, and to come up with an idea for a blog post is like, huh. Then I got to think, where’s the podcast? You just go there and answer the questions. There’s a great book by Marcus Sheridan and it’s called, they ask you answer and his own ideas, you know, the content that you should be writing is the answers to the questions that get asked. And it’s the same thing with a podcast when people say, well, you know, how do I prepare? Wait, you’ve got to be prepared to know who the audience is. Um, you know, who the host is, what kind of questions they could ask you, but most of the time they’re just asking you about your experience, your opinion on things. And it’s, you know, it’s like, how do you prepare for a conversation with a buddy at sit down at breakfast. You don’t just go there and, and, and have the.
That’s right, that’s right. And I mean, you don’t know where the conversation’s going to lead because something could trigger an interest that leads you down a particular path and you end up talking about that the whole time. So you can’t really prepare for that fully. But you can prepare, like you said, full who your who, your podcast, who you podcast, uh, appeals to, who their audience is. And, you know, uh, what sort of stuff they would typically be talking about and what kind of value they want to get out of you as a guest. So yeah, you can certainly research that. Let’s talk about midlifers, um, as you know, this podcast is called midlife mastery and the blog where I write his midlife tribes. So I’m 49 years old and the bulk of what I write about is a moving through this phase and reinventing your life so that you, your second act, all optical at your second act is something that you can be proud of, something you can actually really enjoy because most of the time leading up to the point of 40, mid forties is, is working your butt off, providing for your family, trying to build up your career equity and you know, your financial equity and Alyssa to stuff.
And um, it can be overwhelming. And obviously a lot of people go through a midlife crisis where they stopped to ask the big questions, well, you know, what’s it all for? What’s the point of all of this? You know, and I’m a big advocate for reframing this stage in life and understanding that he’s one of the best times in your life because you’ve got this huge bank of knowledge and experience and scars and failures and you’ve developed a certain degree of wisdom, um, you know, what you will and won’t tolerate. And I think that this is not only one of the best times of life, but it is one of the best times in history to be at this stage in life. I mean, when my parents were in their forties, you know, they’re already sort of crusty and old in the way they behaved and what they thought they future held and, you know, they spend a lot of their time talking about the past versus the exciting opportunities that existed in the future. You know, the future for them was retirement. You know. So, um, I really think this is because of technology to a large extent because we can now reach out and talk to literally billions of people where we couldn’t 20 years ago. I think this is a huge opportunity for people in midlife because of the experience I’ve got because of the knowledge they carry and because technology allows them to leverage it. Is this how you say it, this stage of your life, love
very much cell and I’m more excited about my next decade than I am anyone in my life. Right. And we’re, we’re blessed because, you know, uh, by dad commuted back and forth to the city, he was a, he was a printer, you know, my grandfather was a mechanic and that was, that was hard, you know, backbreaking work for him, you know, he, he was exposed to a specialist in the breaks and everything and you know, he had to retire. I look at it, uh, what I’m doing here. It’s like, why would I want to retire? In fact, I’m, I’m, I’m 52, I just turned 52 and when I turned 50, I had made a joke with a friend years ago that we’d never retire because if we did, we would drive our wives crazy. So to us, the idea of retirement was doing fun things with interesting people and writing off all the prophets is a business expense.
Well, this friend of mine from, uh, from high school, he passed away a number of years ago, but when I turned 50 I looked at that and said, well, that’s what I’m doing right now. I’m doing fun things with interesting people and writing it all off as a business expense. So if I retired, what would my life look like differently? I’m like, I’d still do the same thing. So I think we’re starting to blur that thing between when we’re going from, you know, the working life. And then the retiring life. I love it. Uh, Dan Miller wrote a book called 48 days to the work you love. He’s got a podcast also and Dan I think is in his early seventies. Um, and, and he’s got as many plants for the next decade, uh, as anybody in their twenties. And he believes that every decade you should double your impact, right?
Because it’s not just another 10 years, but it’s another 10 years where you’ve got all that wisdom behind you. And so from that, a compounding right though, relationships, the wisdom, and if you take care of your health, you should still have, have the energy there. Uh, so that’s one of the big things that I look at now is trying to focus more on my health and my energy, uh, because, you know, um, if I can stay healthy, uh, then I can stay healthy, stay happy. I can also, you know, create an income and also do the things that I want. So, um, you know, when I was working a corporate job, probably at the age of 35, I was counting the days to retirement and now it just looked at it and go, I’m, nope, I’m not going to retire.
I totally agree. I totally agree. My wife and I often talk about this and uh, you know, we want to start traveling symbol and um, you know, we both worked very long hours, but we both work from home. You know, we don’t have to commute, we don’t have to throw on a suit, you don’t have to dress up in the morning. We can sit at our desk instinct if we feel like it and you know, we love it. We, um, if we suddenly stopped and just started traveling and only traveling, I think we get bored senseless pretty quickly because it is exciting to create stuff and to make some sort of an impact at there in the world to make your little dent in the universe as Seth Godin calls it. And wait both rick and that if we get to a where we can actually call ourselves
retired, but probably not going to be doing things all that much differently to what we’re doing now will just shift the scales a little bit. We’ll do a little bit less of the grunt work, a little bit more of the traveling, but we’ll still be doing very much the same things. And for us it’s sort of a combination of that. Our youngest just went to a off to college and so we’re more or less empty nesters and with my business I can, you know, I can do it from any place. So I love travel and uh, one of the things that we’ve committed to is working one week a month in a different city. So like a next weekend we’re going to California. It’s a three hour time difference. Well, I’m old, right? I wake up at 5:00 AM every morning. Doesn’t, doesn’t matter what the clock says.
So I guarantee when I’m out in California, my body’s probably going to wake up at 2:00 AM. I can get up for, you know, um, I don’t know, five slash six hours, get some work done, do emails, all the rest of that. Then have breakfast at eight or 9:00, then we’ll, we’ll do some stuff. If I wanted to take a nap in the afternoon, that’s fine, but I love that. Now it’s that work is what you do, not necessarily where you go or who you are or who you are. Yes. Yeah. It’s so true. Isn’t it funny how people, you know, when they walk up to each other and meet each other at a party or a business thing, you know, almost the first thing particularly men ask is, so what do you do? Which basically means who are you and where do you fit on the, uh, on the ladder here of how important you are compared to me.
Am I more important than you? Are you more important than me? I always liked the one. Where do you work at? Well, first of all, you’re not supposed to end a sentence with a preposition, but it’s like, you know, I’m not, I’m not chained to a machine. I’m not changing with factories. I think the better question is, you know, how do you serve mankind? Yeah. Yeah. Or what, what are you really excited about these days? What are you into? Yes. Yeah. It people sometimes ask me what I do and I really struggled to Wayne so I really don’t know quite how to answer it. You know, I should come up with a nice little, you know, 20 words or less thing and I can print it on a cart and pull it out and just recite it to them. But I still struggled to answer that question because I have to answer that question to my mom.
And uh, she, she doesn’t understand podcasting, you know, granted she’s, she’s early seventies, but, uh, uh, I just tell her that I help introduce people so that they can serve each other and connect with each other and she sort of understands that. But I live in a very agricultural area and I swear most of my neighbors know that I’m working from Paul must think, you know, I’m, I’m a drug dealer or something like that because they have no idea, uh, you know, and for the life of an entrepreneur. I remember at Church one time, uh, saying that, uh, I was going to be working on a project afterwards and somebody looked at me and like, wow, do you get paid triple time on Sunday? I hope I get paid for this Sunday. Exactly.
I was just having a conversation with one of the dads at my son’s school the other day. I walk my son to school every morning and um, you know, he said, I noticed your car wasn’t in the driveway, um, last week for a couple of days. And I said, Oh yeah, I had a bit of a technical challenge that I wanted to solve and I can’t really solve complex things in front of a computer. So I just jumped in the car early each morning and I nicked off to the country and to the countryside. And while I was driving I would record my ideas on my phone and then I’d get to a destination somewhere out there in the country, a couple of hundred k’s away. And I would sit down with a pen paper and transcribe those ideas. And you know, I do that for a few days and then I come up with answers, you know.
And I did this once for a whole week with a software product that I was developing. I just drove to a lake that was 200 ks away and I’d sit down there in the park bench for five hours and wrote down my ideas and then drive home and I did that everyday for a week and then, you know, a software solution came out of that and he said, wow, Geez, that’d be good if you could do that. Like if you can get that kind of work, that’s good. And I thought, well, you know, in my work, I can do that every day if I want to know. It’s just that the whole paradigm is just changing so rapidly that the little fences and constraints that people have been forced to work within their all just falling apart now. And it’s wonderful.
I love it. Even with, even with some of our clients will talk to them and say, you know, would you drive across town to talk to 10 ideal customers? And they’d say, Oh yeah, what would you drive across state to see, you know, 100 of them. Oh yeah. You know, would you jump on an airplane to go speak to a thousand ideal customers? And that’s at the point where a lot of them are like, uh, no, I’m not talking in front of a crowd that big. And it’s like, well, don’t worry, you don’t have to. You can stay at home in the or in your shorts and flip flops and talked to thousands of ideal customers on a podcast interview. Even the ones that are video, I have to laugh. There was a, uh, we live out in the country and I was on a video podcast interview, you know, I had a shirt on, he had a sport coat on, but I had shoes and flip flops. It was summertime. Yeah. I walked out. I walked outside between interviews and uh, my daughter was coming home with a friend and she was just mortified. She’s like, dad, please don’t walk around like that. I’m like, Hey, on the interview they only see me from the waist up. I was gonna say have you got a camera planted here in my cinnamon because I’m actually wearing shorts and flip flops because it’s, it’s $28.
Grace Celsius a today. So it’s a Sama has finally arrived in Melbourne. It took awhile, but it’s finally here. Well actually it’s not some yet, still spring, but we finally got some warm weather and I love it. I love it. So we should probably wrap this up soon. Hell, we’ve been talking for 40 minutes.
It if it flies and if you listening at like two x, it’s, it’s even faster at Peter. I got to say, it’s always weird to talk to podcast hosts live because I always joke that I listened at like one and a half times speed as I run at half x speed. So your voice sounds so much different than it does on the podcast.
All right, well, um, as a couple of other things I wanted to ask you if we could before we, uh, before we wrap it up. Um, this has been a fantastic conversation. I really enjoyed it. We spark of couple of weeks ago now. The time flew then too. We spoke for almost an hour and I absolutely loved it. Okay. Um, you’ve obviously done a lot of things over the, over the years. You’re a crusty 52 year old now, which means you probably only got about another 50 years to live. So tell me of all these things that you’ve done, what are some of the principles that you’ve learned that have really stood the test of time in everything that you’ve done that have carried through to every other thing that you’ve done?
Wow. Peter, that’s a great question. I think part one would be that systems mentality of that, you know, don’t reinvent the wheel every time. Don’t try pulling a rabbit out of your hat. Um, figure out what works, test it, refine it and use it. The other thing that we sort of touched on this a little bit before, um, is how the world has changed. You know, I, I say the worst business advice I ever got was from my grandfather and it was the only wrong thing that old Irishman ever taught or told me. I was probably 17 years old and he told me, choose carefully who you drink with because you can’t choose who you work with. Now for him it was true, right? Yeah. Yeah. He was, he was a mechanic and a small town, if you, if you, I’m pulled in, you were his customer, but life is different from, for us, you know, we’ve got access to billions of people and you don’t have to work with everybody.
In fact, you shouldn’t work with any. Everybody. You should work with your ideal customers. You know, those people that, that you’re energized by, that you do the best work for our. If they’re not your ideal customer, it doesn’t mean you’re a bad person or they’re a bad person, but you’re not a good fit together. Um, so I think that has been a big theme that’s coming in my life more and more of focusing on who we work with, you know, uh, is this our ideal customer? A lot of times people will come in, especially our current clients there, they’re thrilled with what we do and they’re like, hey, could you do this for me? Also? And a lot of times in my younger years, I would say, yes, I will, I will never turn down if somebody wants to pay me to do something. Yes, we do that too.
And I just look at it and say, no, you know, um, our zone of genius is podcast interview marketing. There’s other people that do that other stuff and, you know, we may be good at that, but they’re, that’s their zone of genius. So let me introduce you to someone else that can do that. And I think that sort of that, that comes with age that you may not have that first half of your life, but boy, it makes things more profitable, more fun, a more enjoyable. And uh, when you start working with your ideal customers, that’s when life life gets to be fun. It’s no longer work. It’s, it’s, it’s working with, with friends and, and people that bring out the best in you when you bring out the best in them.
Yep. Yep. Now that’s a, that’s a really good principal and it flows through and magnifies everything because I’ve done the sign. Um, and it’s only really in the last few years that I’ve made a conscious decision not to work with people who I can’t give my best to and who won’t, weren’t benefit demonst demonstrably from my relationship with them. And because in the past I too will take on anything of customer one of the payment to do something. Yes, I would do it and I’ve done seo work for clients. I do ACO now for a couple of clients, but I don’t promote it as something that I do and get paid for. I just do it as part of whatever else I’m doing for them, whether it’s building a website or doing some digital marketing for them. But in the past people would approach me and offered to pay me good money to do seo for their websites and I would take the money and I would do the work and I hated the work because it was just far too technical for my liking.
There wasn’t any creative aspect to it as certainly for my personality. It didn’t feel like there was and I didn’t enjoy it. And so recently I’ve just decided now that I’m not going to do any of that work anymore because when I do it, it’s exhausting. So then when I’m doing work for clients that I liked doing work that I like, then I’m coming to that work feeling exhausted from the other crap that I’ve just done that I didn’t enjoy. And so, you know, everybody suffers and you know, then I can’t focus my energy on doing more of the work that I’m really, really good at that I really enjoy. So I miss other opportunities. So yeah, it kind of flows into everything, doesn’t it? If you just work with joy, then everyone benefits. If you start doing stuff that you don’t enjoy, that isn’t your zone of genius as you call it, which is cool. I love that. Then everyone gets screwed.
We’ve had people that have called up and it’s like, I couldn’t find the button on your website to sign up and pay that. I’m like, no, we need to have a discussion first. Right? Because it’s not like we’re just selling a little widget. This is a service or relationship. All the rest of that. And it’s like, I want to talk to you. I want to make sure that we can bring you results that, uh, that we bring out the best and, and vice versa. And if we had that discussion, I’ll send you the link and everything like that, but honestly we probably say no or not yet to more clients than we say yes to. Um, sometimes there’s, there’s things that they need to do in order to maximize a podcast interview marketing. And, you know, ultimately we don’t want just another client. We want a happy customer that, uh, is a walking billboard to brings us, uh, other customers.
Yep, totally. And at the end of the day, um, even when you’re doing things only for the money, the fact is that you’re doing it for the money because you’re hoping you can convert that money into things that make you happy or that eliminates some of the things that make you unhappy. And yet you can bypass that simply by doing work you enjoy with people that you enjoy working with. And so by doing that, you’ve eliminated things that make you unhappy and you’ve, you’re doing things that make you happy and the money didn’t even come into the equation. I mean, you get paid for it obviously, but it’s no longer just about getting money so you can then try and buy you happiness.
Argument only works if you’ve got an or not an unlimited, but a huge pool of customers. So that always sounds good. But if you’re in a, a town of, you know, a thousand people and that’s your entire client base. There may not be enough ideal customers. And I think most of us, the biggest challenge that we, that we face, I would say probably 99 percent of the businesses out there is that were obscure, right? We’ve got a product or a service that could really help somebody if they only knew about it. And the problem is, is that were obscure. They don’t know about it, us. Um, so the question becomes is how do we get them to, to know, like, and trust us, you know, we don’t have to change the product, we don’t have to change the website Ab test this. No, just, you know, a lot of times you can’t say enough of the wrong things to the right people or enough of the right things to the wrong people, which you just need to do is start that conversation. And that’s why I love podcasting and podcast interview marketing is a great way to do that.
Yeah, and it’s a triple threat. It’s, it is the fastest way that I, I honestly believe now and I’ve done a lot of digital marketing over the years, but having listened to you and read your book and looked at the numbers, I don’t think there is anything else that they, that can execute on that triple wishlist of getting people to know about you, to lock you and then to trust you in one fell swoop. I really don’t think that we did set that, that does it like that.
Yeah. We did a study that was released, a podcast movement this year, reached out to over 5,000 podcasts, hosts and guests, and one of the questions on there, Peter was rank this different type of marketing, uh, by return on investment and podcasts, interviews ranked number one followed by facebook ads and email marketing. And, you know, then way, way down on there was television, radio, all the rest of that. Uh, and I really believe that if five years from now people will be talking about podcast and adobe marketing, just like they’re talking about email marketing or facebook marketing.
Yep, Yep. Well, I mean, Pat Flynn and Saint and pets Mike and Hundred and 2000 and $30,000 a month. And he said that if he had to abandon all of his revenue generating platforms and all the channels that he operates in, the one that he would keep would be his podcast. That would be the only thing that he would keep because it is through his podcast that he has established the relationships that have allowed him to reach a wide audience of people who have gotten to know, like, and trust him. So if he had to abandon everything else, the podcast is the one thing. Podcasting is the one thing that he would keep doing.
Well, you could always say abandoned the podcast and I’m sure there’s people that know and love him. And he could, he could make his entire circuit on a guest on other people’s podcasts.
Yeah, he probably could. You probably could. He’s certainly got the credibility and he’s got the. He’s already got the reputation and that would just amplify it. Alright, so final question, if you can think on your feet with this one, three things that you know now that you wish you’d known in your twenties,
you will get old. I’m ill, I heard somebody say that, um, uh, when you turn 60 you’ll either whoa, hug yourself or hate yourself for the way you treated your body. So I’m in my twenties. I, I wish I would’ve known that. Uh, the other thing is to play the long game. Yeah, patience. Patience is a virtue. It’s not one that I have and uh, the older I get, the more patient I get. Um, and then the third one would have to be that the richness of your life is the richness of your relationships and richness has nothing to do with the amount of money in your bank. Um, I remember people saying they’d rather have, you know, a friend a call than a million dollars in the bank. Uh, and it’s so true. Um, so I think looking back into my twenties, man, I would have spent a lot more time focusing on relationships as opposed to just dollars.
Um, and I think I’d be a lot further along in that, uh, because, you know, um, the other thing is relationships are the ultimate currency. Uh, the government can’t tax them. They can’t, uh, uh, in inflation doesn’t get it. Um, and uh, even after you’re gone, you know, those relationships that you have those transfer on to your heirs, you know, uh, like I said before that a friend of mine that passed away a few years ago, um, you know, those relationships that he had with his friends that his friends are still checking in on his, on his kids and his wife and everything. So, uh, I think that would be the third one, that relationship relationships are the ultimate currency.
That’s great. Now. That’s fantastic. Bloody good answers. Thank you. Thank you so much for having this conversation with me. Now before we go, where can people find you? What’s the best way for people to reach out to you?
Sure, Peter. And you know, if you’re listening to a podcast, you’re probably multitasking while you do in this. So I’ll make it real easy. I’ll put firstname.lastname@example.org, forward slash midlife. So everything Peter and I talked about will be there. I’ll put all my social media. So if you want to reach out to me there, um, there’s a, uh, a book that I wrote, Peter was nice enough to talk about that. I’ll put a free copy of that in there. If you want to buy it on Google or on Amazon, you’re more than welcome to, but if you just go to a interview valet.com forward slash midlife, you can get a free copy there. And if there’s anything I can do to help you, um, please let me know. Uh, you know, uh, what’s ordinary to you is amazing to other people and is so easy now to share that with others, uh, that, uh, that you need to do that either as a podcast host or as a podcast guest.
That’s brilliant. And I can’t recommend your book highly enough. It is definitely one of my favorite books over the last couple of years. So, and you’re giving it away for free. So that’s a, that’s a, that’s a no brainer. I mean, mind you, I like to have some books on my shelf, especially the ones that I really covered. So I read your book on Kindle, but uh, I’m going to get myself a, yeah, I’m going to get myself a paperback copy to and put it on my desk so I can scribble notes in it, uh, because it’s fabulous. I’m also, this is going to be the first time that I’m going to publish show notes for the midlife mastery podcast. So I’m the show notes of this will be@Midlifetribe.com slash 12 and I think from here on, thanks to what I’ve learned from your book. I’m going to start publishing show notes for each of the episodes. So this one’s going to be@Midlifetribe.com slash 12. Well, Tom, I really enjoyed this and we’ve again talked for almost exactly the same length of time as we chatted last time a couple of weeks ago and I’ve enjoyed this just as much as the last time. So thank you very much again for coming on the show and I’m looking forward to talking to you again.
Oh, thank you Peter. And I look forward to it. The only way this could be better is if we were sitting down in the same place having this discussion, but I can guarantee you one thing, it wouldn’t last an hour. This would go way, way into, into the evening.
Well, I hope we get to do that one day. That’d be cool. That would be. Yeah. All right. Well thanks very much again Tom and give my regards to Karen and I look forward to talking to you again soon. Thank you Peter, and that’s a wrap. This was one of my favorite discussions I reckon so far since I got involved in podcasting. I’ve spoken to quite a few people since I began this journey, but my discussion with Tom is the first that I published on the midlife mastery podcast. So for more details on this discussion and links to the things that we mentioned in this conversation, you can go to Midlife tribe.com/twelve plus. Tom also mentioned that he will have a download link for a free copy of his book, which I highly recommend podcast guests to prophets. He will have that over it. Uh, interview valet.com/Midlife, so go to either place. I’m also going to include the link to that in the show notes over@Midlifetribe.com slash 12. But if you enjoy this conversation and there’s going to be plenty more to come. Um, why don’t you subscribe to the show if you haven’t already. And if you could leave an honest review and a rating on Itunes, then that’ll help us to find the show and I’d really appreciate it. Anyway, that’s it for this week. I look forward to talking to you again next week. Until then, enjoy the rest of your week. Thanks for listening. Bye Bye.
Thanks for listening to the midlife mastery podcast. For more ideas on creating the perfect second act, go to midlife trying.com and learn how to master your time, your money, and your life.