Listen to the entire interview here (37 minutes)
Welcome to the unstoppable CEO podcast with Steve Gordon. Welcome to the unstoppable CEO podcast. I’m your host, Steve Gordon, and I’m really excited to be here with you today. We’re talking with Blair ends and Blair is a. I’ll tell you, I, I, I love his approach to working with service businesses. I think. I think you’re going to find this really fascinating. He’s on a mission to change the way the creative services are bought and sold the world over. He’s the founder and CEO of win without pitching the Sales Training and coaching organization for creative professionals. And he’s the author of two books on selling and pricing for creative professionals and uh, and he himself as a podcast cohost with, uh, David Baker of the two bobs podcast, which is a, it’s an absolutely entertaining. You need to check it out. So a Blair, so happy to have you here and welcome to the unstoppable CEO.
Thanks Steve. It’s my pleasure to be here. So, you know, the folks who listened to this podcast often are, they’re running a service-based business. Some of them might be in what you would call the creative professional professions and some of them are in other types of service businesses, but, but, uh, the one struggle that I know that they all have is, um, is around pricing and how they price their services and, and really having to sell because a lot of them don’t feel totally comfortable with selling. So I’m, uh, I’m, I’m excited that you’re here and can share that with everybody. So how did you get to the point of being an expert in a particular subject?
Yes, I grew up professionally in the creative services a business. I started in an ad agency. It can have an independent ad agency in the middle of Canada where I am. I’m based, um, and uh, they also owned a design firm and then I went onto work in a couple of the world’s largest advertising agencies and then I went back to kind of a smaller design based business as my career progressed. So I like to say I worked in some of the largest advertising agencies in the world and some of the smallest design firms. Um, and I the whole time, I guess that at a young age and my first job, I and my employer discovered that I had an aptitude for selling. Now we, we don’t, we didn’t back then and we don’t today in the creative professions, call it selling, we call it new business development or new business or business development is the code word because, um, as soon as people hear the s word, they kind of shirk from it because in the creative professions ad agencies in particular, they see themselves as marketers as I did and they see marketing as having the same goal as selling wishes to drive a transaction.
But mark marketing is the more sophisticated noble approach. Whereas selling is kind of the dirty approach. That’s how marketers view selling. And they also think that because I refer to this as the marketer’s dilemma, marketers think that because they’re good at marketing their, yeah, I, I could do sales to. I’m pretty good at selling and that’s not universally true. Um, but I think because they look down their noses at the selling and we should define that in a couple of minutes. They think anybody can do that and that’s just not true. So I saw early in my, in my agency career working for ad agencies and design firms that, um, the way that creative professionals sold is really quite different from the way other professionals sell. And then other businesses, so you know, owners of creative businesses, what I’ll call a creative entrepreneur would explain to like their lawyer or accountant friend, how they, you know, I go to, I can’t, I can’t stay out late.
I’ve got this big pitch tomorrow. Well, what do you mean a big. What’s the big pitch? Well, yeah, we’ve got to go in and we do this big dog and pony show. We bring in this whole team. We do this big presentation. Oh, so it’s a big client. Your must be paying you well for this. No, no, no, we’re, we’re, we’re giving away our highest value products for free strategy, free creative in the hopes that they’re going to hire us. Wait a minute. So that’s kind of the problem. It’s not even the problem in the creative professions. That’s the symptom of a problem. I saw the symptom and the problem and at some point thought, you know, I’m pretty sure I can fix this and that’s kind of the medium length version of how win without pitching was born, which originally was a consulting practice and now it’s a training company.
Well certainly a worthy problem to try and tackle and one that I know a lot of people struggle with. And I imagine for you it wasn’t a straight line path. I mean, you, you discovered that this was a challenge while you were inside the agency. You decided you’d go in and begin working on it and consulting. And as you’ve done that, what are some of the things that as you run into roadblocks and speed bumps along the way that you really kind of draw on to keep pushing forward?
I think right from the beginning, and my um, you know, when I was in independent consultants, I realized that one of the problems, one of the reasons that the creative professionals have no power, very little power in their buy-sell relationship. And that’s kind of the big problem, that the free pitch is a symptom of the buyer has all the power. Um, I realized early on that one of the drivers of this challenge, of this lack of power was that creative firms or undifferentiated, there’s, there’s, there just seems to be this glut of undifferentiated oversupply of, of generalist design firms or full service marketing communication firms, which is a term that means we do everything for everybody. And one of the things I realized early on is what drives this and makes this problem more prevalent in the creative professions is it is in the nature of the creative personality to want to solve the problem they have not previously solved.
Creativity is effectively the ability to see. It’s not the ability to write or draw. So the ability to see. It’s the ability to bring fresh perspective to a problem, to come at a problem the way that others have not. And so if that is your scale, than you are going to craft your business, your natural inclination will be to craft your business so that you’re able to constantly solve problems that you have not previously solved. So I come along and I say to these creative professionals who are like these wild mustangs, galloping across the plane, they’ve structured these businesses, allow them do anything for anybody. But as a result, they have these sales and marketing challenges. They find it really hard to get new clients. I come along and I try to put the bridle on this Mustang so that I can channel their power and speed so that they can actually win some races so they can actually succeed in business.
And the, uh, the bridal for the creative professional is focus is, is, uh, because the challenge really is that the individual’s need for variety and those of your listeners who aren’t creative professionals but who are highly entrepreneurial, they’re going to identify with this because they’re creative too. And they share this. A lot of them would share this attribute, um, uh, they build this business that allows them to solve all these different problems. And I say, no, no, no, you need to focus because your personal need for variety is directly at odds with your businesses need to focus and you will never become an expert if you do not focus. So that was the first piece of the foundational piece of business that I gave to instill, give to my clients. You need to focus enabled to build the depth of expertise because you need to be able to benefit from what my friend and podcast co-host David c dot Baker called pattern recognition.
You need to be able to spot the patterns and the only spot, the patterns if you’re looking at the same types of problems over and over again. So that was the advice I gave to my clients. And I realized early on that as I achieved a little bit of success and somebody kind of tangential to my target market would say, Hey, can you also do this for me? Diffused my focus? Or I would think about it. And then it like, no, no, no, no focus, flare, and I would bring it back. So I think that was, I see that as my first success that I, in addition to giving the advice, it should be simple to me, but that I actually took my own advice and remain focused on solving these very specific challenges for a very specific type of audience.
You know, a couple of things in, in all of that that, that jump out at me. Um, first is the insight into why creative professionals do all things for all people. Um, I’ve never heard it expressed that way before, but now that, now that I’ve heard it, it makes perfect sense. Um, and that’s a tremendous insight. Um, I’ve always looked at it a little bit differently, that, that the reason that they do all things for all people is because they need to make payroll in two weeks and whatever green back dollar bill walks in the door is good enough to make payroll. Um, which is probably part of the story, but uh, but I, I think now that now that you bring it forward, there is this underlying just drive to, I want to go solve a new problem.
Yeah. And the proof is in the behavior of that creative professional who takes something out really outside of their area of focus when things are good, when they don’t need the money. Right. I used to work for a guy who ran a really creative firm, was doing okay at the time and something would come to us that was just really weird. Or um, his rationale. It maybe made sense for us to pursue, but the money wasn’t there and his rationale for pursuing it was the portfolio. Well, it’ll be good for the portfolio. He already had a world-class portfolio. He didn’t need another client in stable to say, look how good our work is. So he was just rationalizing his own personal desire to work on something different. Here’s a, here’s a great test to see if you really are focused specialist and expert in your field.
Um, somebody comes to you with a challenge outside of your area of focus. So I find your area of focus is two things, x for Y, discipline for market. We do these things for this market. So somebody comes to you with an opportunity that’s quite outside of your area of focus and your reaction, which is, oh, cool, that would be great. I’ve never done that before, or we’ve never done that before. That is the reaction of a generalist because they’ve never actually worked from this place of deep expertise. Once you work from this place of deep expertise, you see the patterns and somebody invites you to step outside of that area where you don’t know what the patterns are and you’re going to have to spend all this time exploring the reaction should be fear. I don’t mean terror. It shouldn’t. You should have some nervousness about going and doing something where you are no longer the expert. And if you don’t have that nervousness, it simply means that you haven’t framed your business. You haven’t created expertise by narrowing your focus enough.
Yeah, without a doubt. Um, well I think we could probably go down that rabbit hole forever. I want to get to a. So all of your great wisdom on, on pricing and on selling a. before we do that, we’re going to take a quick break. We’re going to be right back with more from Blair. Hi, this is Steve. I hope you’re enjoying this interview. We’ve got more to come in a minute, but what I’d love
for you to do right now is rate this podcast. Leave us a review, rate us on itunes. It’ll really help others discover the podcast and help us help other ceos, other business leaders become unstoppable. So if you go to the unstoppable CEO, Dr, net forward slash itunes, you can find instructions there and links that will take you right to where you need to go to review the podcast. Thanks so much. Now, back to the interview. Hey, welcome back. This is Steve Gordon and I’m here talking with you
where it ends. And, uh, we’re going to talk a little bit about pricing your services. Blair’s an expert at figuring this whole thing out and there’s probably no greater question that creates angst among service providers than how do I price, I mean, do I price by, you know, the market rate is, is whatever it is, you know, it shouldn’t I be competitive. So, um, where, where do you want to begin this part of the conversation?
Well, so I haven’t a new book out, it’s called pricing creativity, a guide to profit beyond the billable hour. And I’ll just kind of explain how the book breaks down and then I’ll, I’ll cherry pick some of the key principles from it. So the book has four sections. First principles. So what I, what I did is I took all of the underlying principles of value based pricing theory and a lot of behavioral economics and they distilled it down to the fewest principles that you need to kind of understand. So the basic knowledge that you need to have. And I was imagining like I was writing this for a designer, right? So they weren’t going to read all of the pricing theory that I wrote read. So I’ve distilled it down to a few principals as possible, so there’s a small number of key principles is, but for the next section is rules.
There are six rules of price and creativity and the rules are do these things every single time. And then the third section is the largest part of the book. It’s tips, it’s a whole bunch of like specific situation, guidance like how to handle retainers, how to, um, exploration of really alternative pricing models, how to craft your high priced options, how to craft low price options for price buyers. So it just goes on and on. And then the fourth section is tools. It’s kind of templates and checklists to use when you craft your next proposal. So if I could just cherry pick some of those. The first, the key underlying principle is the idea of the subjective theory of value. That value is in like beauty. It is in the eye of the beholder. And so I’ll go from that first principle to the first rule, which is to price the client and not the job.
And so what that means that leverages the subjective theory of value. And a notion that’s called price discrimination and price discrimination sounds bad because you know, the things that were discrimination conjures up gender or racial discrimination, but it’s actually a good thing. Another way to express price discrimination is willingness to pay. So I would state it as some people are willing to pay more, a lot more for than others. And your job is to let them. So by price the client, not the job, one of the implications of that rule is if somebody comes to you and says, Hey, what do you charge for x? You should not have an answer because the answer depends not on your inputs of time and materials. The answer does not depend on the outputs of the market value of your outputs, of the deliverables. The answer should depend upon the value that you would create providing x would create for the client.
So, uh, and this rule only applies to customized service businesses. So that would be most of your audience. Instead of somebody who productize that liquid, I run a training company. So it’s a productized service business where we don’t value price. We effectively segment our audience. And make decisions about groups of people who value different things and then we put together packages. But when I was a consultant, I should have priced this way and I did not. Um, and so your listenership would think, well, if I provide a service, let’s say I’m an, I’m an accounting firm and we’re talking about doing some sort of audit audits, we charge x or we charge between x and y, depending on the size of the company. You would really just let go of this idea of having this range and you would enter into a value conversation to assess what the value of providing x to the client would be.
And then you come up with a price range and then you come back and present some, a proposal with some options in that range. So that’s rule number one. I’ll just give you one more. The second rule is to always offer options. So, um, we, I always in my consulting career, when somebody approached me about working with them, I would put forward my proposal and I’m not a fan of the written proposal, but I would just say here’s what I do for you and here’s how much it costs and it’s essentially a take it or leave it proposition. And what I didn’t understand until I really went down the rabbit hole of, of pricing theory is that when you put forward a take it or leave it, proposal to your clients with only one option, you’re doing a whole bunch of things wrong. Number one, you’re making some assumptions, whole bunch of guesses about their propensity for risk.
You’re making guesses about what it is that they really value. But the biggest thing you’re doing wrong is you are, you’re asking them to answer question. Their brain is not wired to answer. If you put forward a proposal for x services and the price is $25,000, um, you’re asking the client to determine is this service worth $25,000? And they cannot do that without making a comparison. Human beings cannot subjectively perceived absolute value is they can’t look at it, and I proved that in the book through this, through this, uh, optical illusion. I can get you to think that black is white or the white is black. I can get you to think that wet is dry, that heavy, as light. That light is dark, that all of these things, if you allow me to control the comparisons, the brain is wired to make comparisons. So if you change, if you were to just to change one thing and go from putting a take it or leave it proposal with one option to your client.
Let’s say in this case $25,000 and you provided options, let’s say a $25,000 option at $35,000 option and a $60,000 option. You can watch the client’s brain go to work trying to answer the question it’s actually wired to answer which is which of these options is the best value. So if you don’t control the comparisons, if you don’t provide the options, you’re forcing the client to go away and find something against which to compare your proposal so they have to go get another bid from somebody else or they think back to what they’ve paid you previously or what else they could get for $25,000. But the common one is they they go compare against another provider and it’s really interesting. You see that. You see clients react differently. They, they, their brain starts to work away at solving the problem it’s equipped to solve which of these this is the best value. So you’re, you’re likely your incidence of positive outcomes goes up from 50 percent to 75 percent and the likelihood of you getting a yes goes way up and the likelihood your margin is going to go way up. If you provide those three, if you think that budget is 25 are coming in at 25 and then you provide a couple of other options. Most of the time people go to the middle. There’s this principle called extremist diversion where they don’t like to be out on the ends or the extremes, so they’re forced toward the middle.
Yeah. First brilliant strategies all the way around and you know, if knowing most service providers who are probably listening to this thinking, well that’s great, but you don’t understand my, my clients, my prospects
you’ve never had that. Never had that retort. Right? That’s Great Steve, but you don’t understand my business. Yeah.
And you know, and so I guarantee you, there’s somebody sitting here listening to this. First of all, I hope most of you who are listening to this just had a major epiphany because those two, if you took those two rules that Blair just shared with you, you could probably easily increase your income by 50 percent and maybe a 100 percent this year without a lot of effort, without changing anything else, because all you’re doing is really changing some really basic fundamentals and how you present what you’re doing. Um, you know, the first objection is going to be, well, you know, my, my clients only, you know, you talk about value, they don’t value my services very highly and I don’t know about you, but my response to that is always, well, let’s talk about what you’ve presented to them. Have you presented it, have, have you first of all really dug deep enough with that client to understand what is valuable or you’re just allowing them to value the hours that you put it in front of them, which aren’t worth very much frankly, without the connection to the business value of the client. I think that’s probably the first biggest pushback. I don’t know what you hear this all the time, don’t you?
Yeah. Um, it’s interesting that if we’re talking about professional services, there is, it’s hard to imagine anything that is less of a commodity than a, a good idea or a piece of good advice. Yet so many professionals see themselves as in a commoditized profession. It’s act, it’s rife with irony. I’m the you, I’m talking to the, to the listener here. You, you are in a unique creature on this planet. You are in. Even if you look at the next, if you’re a financial planner and you’re looking at the, you know, you’re surrounded by financial planners, you are as different from these people as there are like snowflakes, right? We’re all different human beings. Our experiences are different. We process information differently. We come up with different ideas and different solutions. Even if you’re working within the same legislative legislative framework, even if you’re working with some of the same conventions, I fully believe that you are capable of coming up with solutions that are radically different from somebody else, so it’s just so hard for me to see these as commoditized, but if you.
The quickest way to commoditize your thinking is to sell it in units of doing is to break it down by the hour or by the day day and start selling your time. So if I would say, if people are feeling like, well, my clients don’t value what I do, that that responsibility is with you. It’s with how you are approaching. First of all, it’s the conversations that you’re having with yourself, do you, do you see yourself and what it is that you have to offer as meaningfully different, and then it’s how you’re proposing to engage with and work with the client. Are you just simply selling time because the units of time are effectively a commodity or they’re commoditizing factor of, of something that’s. So that’s something that can be really unique. Um, and then, uh, are you. So a big theme in my work, in win without pitching in our, in our training business is moving from the vendor position in the sale to the expert practitioner position.
So do you see yourself as the vendor with little power in the buy sell relationship? If you see yourself that way, you’re going to behave that way. You’re going to communicate that way and if you just give yourself a pep talk before you go engage with the next perspective client and just big yourself up a little bit so that you’re feeling confident and you behave kind of clinical, not needy, still human engaged, interested but not needy. Let go of anything that you might need from this person needs to be liked, the need to win the business that we’d need for money. Just try to let go of it beforehand and channel the most kind of clinical professional in your life like your lawyer, your accountant, whomever, and just behave like the expert. You might be amazed at how your sales experience and then engagements that follow after that change remarkably, and that’s going to have a significant impact on the amount of money that you’re able to come in. And the biggest barrier to, um, to profit for a, for a professional entrepreneur is really just their mindset is really what they think they’re worth.
Yeah, without a doubt. There’s very little structurally in the business that will get in the way because there’s so little overhead in the business. So if you can multiply what you can charge, which is about 99 and a half percent, what’s between your ears and about a half a percent what the market says. Markets got to pay for it. But I guarantee you there’s somebody that will be willing to pay for it. And there is evidence all around you because there are firms that charge multiples of what you charge no matter what you charge right now.
Yeah. Can I offer one more tip from the book? Sorry, one more rule. The. So the first rule is priced. The client second rule is um, offer options in the third rule is anchor high. So the anchor high is that means when you’re presenting your options to your client, you start with the most expensive one. And the high anchor is the job of the anchor is not to be bought. The job of the anchor is to make the other options and specifically the second most expensive option look more affordable. And there are so many businesses and industries that know this so well. And I’ve collected so many stories from folks who’ve read the book. I’ve gotten a ton of feedback of. Let’s go back to that example. I use 25,000. You think the budget’s 25. So you have the, maybe the client says I’ve got $25,000.
So that’s your third option. And then your second option might be 35 and that’s where you want to end up, and then the first option that you’re going to lead with is $60,000, um, and you present that first and let the sticker shock kind of sink in, and then you can present either of the other two next and you will be surprised at how a, how often the second the middle option gets bought. But then I would say that the number one, the most common piece of feedback I’ve had from who have read the book and who have applied the principles is they come back and they say, I put my first three option proposal in front of the client with a high anchor. And they immediately took the anchor. I’ve heard that two dozen times. And so the realization of the professional is, oh my lord, I, I had been significantly undercharging myself for a very long time.
Yeah, without a doubt. And I shouldn’t admit this publicly because I’ll probably get sales calls now, but you know, if I’m presented with options, I always gravitate towards the most expensive.
Yeah, there are some people like that and the. Yeah, and I. Yeah,
go ahead. I know that about me. It frustrates the heck out of my way. You know, people like to buy quality, right? Right. Well, or at least the perception of. And if that’s what they want, why would you not sell them that?
Yeah. And, and you. So if you, if you put forward three options and you have a very high no, they’re going to take the cheapest option and they don’t, and then it happens again to another client and they don’t take the option you think they’re going to take, then that’s a lesson that you’ve been making guesses about what clients value, but how much risk they want to take and how much risk they want you to make go away because your premium prices are almost always tied to a reduction in risk. You’ve been making these guests is your entire career and you’ve usually been guessing wrong.
That’s a huge, I think, take away from this entire conversation. Um, and uh, you know, it’s funny, every time I talk with someone who’s a real expert at pricing, even though I think we do a pretty good job at this, and I think some people listening are going to go, yeah, okay, I hear all of this. I think I do a pretty good job every time it makes me reevaluate and I go, hey, there’s places here we can improve. So even if you’re doing this really well already, I, I think there’s plenty of room for improvement, but if you’re not doing any of this at all, this is, I think a very good opportunity for you to transform your business. And it’s the easiest, fastest way to do it. And a lot of levers you can pull, you can get better marketing, you can do all that other stuff. Oh, that’s great. Um, but the immediate one you can, you can do like tomorrow and your next appointment with a prospect is put in place some of these rules that, that we’re talking about here today. So Blair, whether wisdom do you have for us, what, what’s the next most important piece that people focus on?
Uh, well, I think that’s a, that’s a lot right there. If I could throw out one other piece that comes from the tips section of the book and it’s this idea on rethinking retainers. Some professions get retainers, right? Like the legal profession tends. Do it well, wear the retainers, that chunk of money you put down up front and then the lawyer works away at it. And the, you know, the issue I have with the only issue I would have with that is they’re still continuing to sell time and I recognize that not everybody’s going to move away from selling time. Um, but in the creative professions, I see kind of an unhealthy regard for retainers. I mean, the, the benefits of retainers are, they’re pretty obvious, right? It’s this consistent income. So you get visibility into your cash flow, which is a wonderful thing. It allows you to do all this planning, but it also forces you to make, um, make some decisions about withholding resources, et cetera.
Uh, I know public relations professionals, we do some work with pr people, uh, they, they’re guilty of taking a client’s budget and always dividing it into 12, into a monthly retainer and then kind of pacing out the work over 12 months. Well, so many engagements in any type of profession are front loaded where there’s a whole bunch of work required upfront. And so if you’re selling on retainers, then you’re, there are times when you are, you are causing an unnecessary slow down in the, in the engagement. And then there are times when you’re busy doing make work. It’s been my experience that in these types of retainer relationships, there’s almost always one party that’s unhappy. And I think the appeal for both sides, one of the appeals of a retainer for both sides is the client thinks, okay, it’s based on basically buying so much time every month, but I’m going to try to get more time out of you and therefore drive my unit cost down.
And the seller, uh, the greater professional is thinking, okay, you’re going to commit to so much time. Um, and I’m, you know, hopefully there’s going to be some months where I’m able to under deliver and therefore it’s more profitable and I don’t think that’s a healthy relationship for either party and that’s why I think there’s almost always one party that’s an unhappy with the relationship. So I think we really need to rethink retainer based relationships. I like the idea of retainers for strategic guidance that aren’t tied to, that aren’t tied to um, uh, hours or outputs. So it might be $10,000 a month as an example to have open access to me, the CEO. So when things go high level strategic issues come up, you get the right to call me, that’s a great use of a retainer. Um, but then the projects in the relationship, it probably makes sense to bill on a project to arrive at the price based on the value to the client.
And you know, so there’s the value based pricing theory that says you should never sell time. I don’t agree with that. I think the, in some businesses, like in the creative professions there, there’s the work that you do with your brain. And then there’s the work you do with your fingers, the typing, etc. And the, the, uh, the cerebral stuff is more strategic and it’s easier to value price, you’re going to deliver more value. Some of the doing work is highly commoditized And you might think about actually stepping on the tactical to raise the value of the strategic and just charging by the hour for that. Um, wherever possible you want to make. If you’re going to do that, you want to make sure you have some people who are, they don’t have the unit costs, you don’t, they don’t have an hourly rate. Everything, if they’re touching a client, it’s their, their involvement is, uh, is based on value based pricing. Whereas other people, they might have a billable rate, it might. so I’m not a full idealist when it comes to value based pricing. Um, but yeah, those two points of retainers makes you have a look at what are these retainers really the right thing for you to do. There are absolutely for forcing you to sell inputs as opposed to being completely focused on delivering value for the client.
Yeah, and I think in, in either of those models, you’re always selling time and effort at the end of the day. I mean you’ve got to put time and effort in this whole notion of stop ending the trade of, of time for money. I think it’s a false kind of wish that we all have because at some point you’re putting in effort and that that requires time. Now you might be putting in highly leveraged time and I think that that is a goal to work for. Um, but really it’s, in my mind it’s just what are we going to put the focus on in terms of how we’re valuing this. if, if we put the focus on the time component of it, it’s not worth very much, you know, you’re essentially a labor. If you put the focus on the result piece of it, which is really where the value based pricing comes in, then now, now we’re, we’re focused on something that we can justify a, you know, charging a higher price for it’s worth x to, to the client.
Whereas, you know, the labor, they’re probably going to undervalue that. Um, because they don’t have an appreciation for it, it’s really gotta be it’s gotta be valued in, in their terms, not in your terms of how you, how you arrange the work and, and create the deliverables. Agreed. Well blair, this has been a fantastic conversation. I’m sure we could go on down this rabbit hole for hours. So, uh, before we wrap up, I want to make sure everybody can, uh, can find you on the web because I’m sure some folks are going to want to learn a little bit more about your approach to pricing. So what’s the best place for them to go and find out more?
Yeah, so pricing, creativity. The book is available email@example.com and it’s inexpensive book. It’s available in three different options with, it’s the first pricing book priced based on the principles in the book. I’m so go to pricing creativity, [inaudible] dot com that’ll redirect you to a page on our main website which is win without pitching.com. So you can find me at both of those places and I’m a blair, ends on twitter and linkedin.
Awesome. Pleasure. Thanks so much for being with us today. Great. Great to go through this. Been fun. It’s been my pleasure, steve. Thanks for having me. Thanks for listening to the unstoppable ceo podcast. Help others discover this show. Leave a review and rating on firstname.lastname@example.org, but what slash.